Day2: How to Reorder a Communion? Bible First, Structures Second

The future shape of the Anglican Communion is being debated this week in Abuja, Nigeria.

At the GAFCON conference, more than 400 bishops and global leaders are working through the logic of the proposal that could lead to a new Global Anglican Communion — a fellowship grounded in the authority of Scripture and historic Anglican doctrine.

On Day 2 of the conference, Dominic Steele speaks with key leaders including Vaughan Roberts (Oxford), Julian Dobbs (ACNA), and Richard Condie (Tasmania), along with presenters from Uganda, Brazil and Nigeria.

They discuss:
 • The implications of the Church of England’s current trajectory
 • The logic behind a reordered global communion
 • The mission opportunity for global Anglicans
 • What this could mean for churches in the UK, North America and Australia

This episode is part of The Pastor’s Heart special coverage of GAFCON 2026 in Abuja.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:40

I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you gave me. I studied Diploma in theology at Bunda Bible College. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained with support from Anglican Aid in the last five years. When you give to Anglican Aid's Global Anglican Communion Fund, you'll help resource the world's poorest diocese to preach Christ faithfully and care for people in need. Visit Anglicanaid.org.

The Statement And Its Logic

SPEAKER_05 1:10

It is the Pastors Hard and Dominic Steele, and we're live from Abuja, Nigeria, bringing you all the news from the big GAFCON conference here. We're sponsored by Anglican Aid. Go to Anglicanaid.org. The center of the conference program is working through the logic of the statement that was issued late last year, which culminated in the climax of really announcing the new global Anglican communion. And what's happening today and tomorrow is that each speaker is presenting an aspect of that thesis for 20 minutes or so. They're each expounding a part of the proposal. So far, we've heard from six of the 12 presenters, and there'll be another six presenters tomorrow. In our program today on The Pastor's Heart, we're going to catch up in just a few moments with three of the presenters here on day two. And we will hear the logic of the argument that they presented in this program. Also, we'll hear from Julian Dobbs, the uh uh acting archbishop of the province of the United States of America, and Richard Condy from Australia. But first, we're going to reflect on developments in the United Kingdom. And a couple of hours ago, I caught up with Vaughan Roberts, Senior Minister of St. Ebbs in Oxford, and a leader of the Alliance movement, which has been resisting the push for revisionism in the Church of England. Vaughan, last night, uh listening to Archbishop uh Henry Underkarba, do not be yoked together with unbelievers, um, I heard that passage prophetically applied in a way with a with a sharpness that I that I hadn't heard before.

UK Developments With Vaughan Roberts

SPEAKER_03 2:41

It's very sharp. Um, but it's the kind of message that goes back years because of the um disasters have been happening in the Anglican Communion. And that's what happened at the very first GAFCON. The very first GAFCON was dealing with the reality that what we've got within the Anglican Communion is essentially two understandings of scripture, uh, two gospels, two paths. And that was already unraveling. It unraveled in the US, and that first GAFCON in 2008 said, you know, the authentic Anglican is the one who holds to authentic Anglican doctrine. And that's been played out ever since in different provinces and across the communion. So what Archbishop Henry said last night just follows in that trajectory.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

Now, let's think about that trajectory and how those two different paths have played out in the Church of England. Um, particularly tell us how you've reacted to the to well the the last general synod.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yes, the last general synod um not much happened, to be honest, but preceding the general synod, the House of Bishops recognized that the um the quick path towards even greater liberalism was a path they couldn't take. Um just to remind listeners, um, what's happened to the Church of England, the Church of England agreed to uh allow for blessings of same-sex unions out in the context of normal services, but not a distinct blessing service. So that in itself is a red line. But the the the House of Bishops, gloriously, not all of them, there's there's some who are very much against this, but the House of Bishops as a whole said they wanted to move towards same-sex marriage for clergy and uh distinct same-sex blessing services. And they were told basically by the legal advice and the theological advice, they couldn't do that in the process they were pushing forward on. It was a change of doctrine, and you can't just push that through. So they they held back. And what happened to General Synod was um a lot of backlash from the revisionists because they wanted to go forward, but there was a little element within their motion that said, look, we're we're stopping, but we're still going forward. They set up working groups towards the process that will lead to what they want to take place. So everyone was unhappy, really. Liberals that this so-called living in love and faith process has formally kind of stalled, but conservatives were unhappy because uh the House of Bishops said, but we're still moving towards it.

SPEAKER_05 5:13

And there's no sign of repentance from the House of Bishops.

Synod Stalemate And Next Steps

SPEAKER_03 5:17

No, what they held back because of procedural grounds and legal grounds, and that it seems clear they're still determined to move forward. There's we're coming to the end of a general synod term. They're elected for five years, and uh there are new elections in the autumn, and uh, I think all of us recognise that's going to be hugely important because what's clear is that um the revisionists know that they can get same-sex marriage if they push a measure through, so-called, in general synod, which means over 50% in all three houses could allow for same-sex marriage for clergy. So um we conservatives are certainly not relaxed at all. Um, so it's uh it's slowed things down, but there's been no repentance, and many determined to keep pushing forward.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

Where does it leave you on do not be yoked with unbelievers? Because you've been pushing for a second province.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Yes, um, many of us within the Church of England, in fact, it's worth reminding people that um that that first motion allowing for blessings for same-sex unions um in normal services, that was only passed by a very, very small proportion, kind of 52 to 48 percent. Those of us who remain orthodox, many of us are saying this this is a first-order issue. Um, because we're talking about scripture, we're talking about sexual morality, the the marriage, this goes right back to the Garden of Eden. We can't have fellowship across this divide. So already there's a breakdown of fellowship. So sadly, and it's a great pain for me and for many others, we're no longer in spiritual relationship with our bishop in Oxford. Um, we as St. Ebbs have have stopped paying money into the the central fund. We're paying no less than we ever paid before, but we're paying it to support Orthodox ministry. So we are playing that out within the overall structure of the Church of England, we are playing out distancing.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

What do you expect is going to be the reaction? I mean, it would seem, just from the mood around the place, that this global Anglican communion is going to be formed in the next 48 hours. What do you expect the reaction is going to be in the UK as this kind of trickles down and people come become aware of what's going on here?

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Well, I have to say, very sadly, my first reaction is most people will hardly notice, and even within the Church of England will hardly care. And when what one of the tragedies of the General Synod debate where we first uh talked about LLF and first decided um by this very narrow majority we were going to bless same-sex unions. Archbishop Sammy from Alexandria was there as a representative of the Anglican Communion, and he said, Look, this will cause huge damage globally. It will be a disaster as far as the communion is concerned. And it was as if he'd not spoken a word. It was completely ignored. So I'm afraid most will not notice and will not care. Um, too many in the Church of England are really indifferent to the communion. That's a tragedy.

SPEAKER_05 8:35

Others will I mean that that's extraordinary, really. And um when you talk to the Africans, I mean, yes, they're angry about the apostasy, but they're also angry about a patronizing colonial attitude that they feel from the English. And what you're describing sounds like that again.

Fellowship Breakdown And Local Actions

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Yeah, well, I don't know what's going on in the heart of people who react like that, but certainly um the needs and concerns of communion have not been addressed in this whole debate um within the Church of England, tragically.

SPEAKER_05 9:08

Vaughan Roberts, thanks very much for talking to us. Well, that is Vaughan Roberts, Senior Minister of St. Ebbs in Oxford. And uh, we're gonna go across the Atlantic now to Bishop Julian Dobbs. He is the Dean of the Province of the Anglican Church of North America, and in that role, he is acting archbishop and primate of North America. Well, it's been a busy couple of days. I mean, it's day two of the conference for the delegate today, but you've been here since Friday in a whole stack of meetings, Julian.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Dominicus, good to see you. Thrilled to be talking with you. Look, we've been here talking about this moment that we are in, the moment to further the proclamation of the gospel and the inheritance of faith that we've received in the wonderful Anglican journey we've been on since the uh time of the Reformation. And and uh the primates have been gathering with their advisors to talk about this and to think about moving forward, what we said when we were in Sydney uh last year, and how to put some teeth into this movement and to give it some muscle to move forward.

SPEAKER_05 10:14

In the uh address last night from Henry Henry Undekaba, um he said, uh, just as the Church of Rome has erred, the Church of England has erred.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, well, isn't it? I mean, we just have to look at the reality of where we are. We have a gospel once for all entrusted to the saints. We're not at liberty to go beyond it, to add to it, to subtract from it. It's the gospel that we've received. And where the church has erred, we need to call out the erring of the church. And bishops need to lead faithfully to ensure that the gospel continues to be proclaimed.

SPEAKER_05 10:50

What will be a success for you as we come out of this next 48 hours?

Global Indifference And Colonial Tensions

SPEAKER_00 10:55

A commitment to the inheritance of faith that we've received. That's that's success. That's where we've got to begin. Secondly, the continued proclamation of the gospel. We've got significant parts of the world that are unreached with the gospel. And the Anglican Church, this global Anglican communion, is well positioned to be able to proclaim the gospel faithfully to the nations. And then some structure as we think about how we're going to move this large expression of Christianity in the world further forward to reach those unreached people groups.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

Let's push into some of those structural decisions because um I've been reflecting that some of us thought that we might have got to this point in Kigali in 2023, but here we are two years later, and it looks like we're going to get there in the next 48, 56 hours. But uh it's going to be a more mature expression of a global Anglican communion than I think would have been formed in Kigali two years ago. Can you comment on that?

Crossing To Bishop Julian Dobbs

SPEAKER_00 11:56

I think in Kigali we were laying the foundation for what's been able to bring us to this very point. Kigali was significant. I don't believe we would have been here without the global Anglican meeting in Kigali. From then, we've put significant prayer and time into this structure to move it forward. And so Kigali was, in a sense, the launching pad to bring forth this global Anglican communion. Global Anglicans committed to the gospel, proclaiming faith in the parameters of the articles, which give us the framework of our faith to see people come to faith in Christ and the gospel being proclaimed. We've got to remember, Dominic, it's all about that. It's about Christ and the gospel. And the structures that we put in place will help us proclaim him faithfully.

SPEAKER_05 12:45

Now, the mood in Kigali was pretty sombre as people were kind of grappling with um well, really the apostasy of um the English leadership. Uh the mood here now, we've kind of moved past that, dealt with our grief over that. And it really does feel like let's get on with it. And quite positive. Is that is that your read too?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Oh, I think the mood here is terribly exciting. People are looking forward to how the future has arrived and how we're going to be part of it, what we're going to pass on to the next generation. And there's a mood of hope that that there's hope for global Anglicans. And we've got here uh representatives from multiple nations coming together, over 400 people, 400 bishops. I mean, this is hugely significant, and it should be significant because this is about Christ.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

I was thinking uh last night, I wonder if people ended up calling this the Council of Abuja.

Guarding The Gospel And Calling Error

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Well, we certainly are taking counsel, and I think if you look back to the Jerusalem Council, that's our model. The apostles, the elders gathered together to wrestle with what was happening in the church in that moment. They then shared that with the wider church. It seemed good to them, and decisions were made. So that's our model from the scriptures. The apostles, the elders coming together, the primates, their advisors, uh the uh regional secretaries of GAFCON coming together, wrestling with these weighty but significantly important matters, and then sharing that with the church. If it seems good to them, we'll move forward together.

SPEAKER_05 14:18

Now, let's turn to domestic issues in the United States. It has been a rocky road for you guys the last little while.

Success Metrics And Structures

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Well, look, I think we go we are in a difficult season in the Anglican Church in North America. Uh, we've got a number of our bishops uh inhibited uh uh before the court for the trial of a bishop. Uh that that actually is something that we should say should say that that helps us understand our processes are actually working. They're working because we're seeing the opportunity for people to um express their concerns and others to defend themselves. So that's the first thing. But primarily what underscores the life of the Anglican Church in North America is the commitment that we made in 2009 when we're established to reach North America with the transforming love of Christ. There are 150 million Americans in North America and Canadians without Christ. And the mission of the Anglican Church in North America, with our brothers and sisters in Christ, is to proclaim Christ in our context. We're dealing with some significant structural challenges in the ACNA. Uh we're we're we're we're we're teenagers now in the ACNA, and we're wrestling with what it means to be an expression, a wonderful expression of the Anglican Church in our teenage years. But I'm very confident because of what I know about Christ, what he's called us to do. We've got a tremendously stable college of bishops. They all believe in Jesus, they all believe in the Bible, they're all committed to proclaiming Christ, and we've got a significant growing uh gospel ministry across North America. So while we're certainly in a moment of tension and struggle, for which I welcome people's prayers, I'm very optimistic because what I know about Christ.

SPEAKER_05 16:09

That is Julian Dobbs, Dean of the Province of the Anglican Church of North America, and in that role he is acting archbishop and primate of North America. We're coming to you live from Abuja, Nigeria. It's the Pastor's Heart. We're brought to you by AnglicanAid, AnglicanAid.org. Now, the afternoon session on the first full day of the conference has just wrapped up, and three of the presenters from today are with us for this part of the discussion. Bishop uh Alfred Olva is with us from Lango in Uganda. Bishop Flavio Adair is here from the Diocese of Recife, and uh Bishop David uh Anoha is here from the Aweri province in the Church of Nigeria. Now, uh Alfred, if we could start with you, uh you were one of the first speakers today, and you argued that the Bible should be at the heart of the reordered communion, and I mean by implication, the Bible isn't at the heart of the current communion.

SPEAKER_08 17:02

I did argue so because at the moment it is sidelined, it's more to do with structures and institutions, but actually, the Bible is the foundation of the communion, it is at the very center, the very heartbeat of the communion. Why? The Bible is the word of God that instructs the church on what it should be and what it should do, and so the church cannot sideline the Bible, then it will lose direction.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

Scripture, not instrumental primacy, I think I heard you say.

From Kigali To Abuja Momentum

SPEAKER_08 17:41

Well, one scripture because scripture has all it takes to bring fellowship, it has all it takes to bring us together and to instruct us on what we have to do about the Christian faith. Whereas institutional structures do not do that, but it is scriptures which has the word over this institution, not the other way around, the institutions over the word.

SPEAKER_05 18:41

Flavio, you challenge the term instruments of communion. You uh rejected them, you questioned the term, and you showed their historical inability.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Communion is not made and managed by instructors, it's a biblical sense, communion, the real and biblical communion comes from not just by fellowship, but a unity and faith, and guard the same faith. It's about long time the instrument, promise uh to make this work to continue guarding the Anglican communion, but they fail. We shared historical moments about it.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

I thought it was an important line from post-colonial mediation to confessional recognition. What did you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah, because we are uh we're we are talking to to Chef River One that those way was not the good way to maintain and continue the uh 20th century, 21st century uh Anglican communion, because the communions in reality is communion in faith, indoctrinal, and the same discipline, not by geographical or uh way of thinking.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

And the church doesn't exist to preserve structures, the structures should promote faith, and when the structures don't promote faith, change the structures. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

When the structure cease to promote communion and faith, we need to uh reorder that. It's about we are talking. We need to reorder, to to change the way, to uh guard the faith and uh guard the Anglican communion, really.

Hopeful Mood And Global Scale

SPEAKER_05 20:24

Let's uh let's come to you, David, and um uh you were arguing it's a settled fact that uh geography does not define Anglicanism.

SPEAKER_06 20:35

Oh, sure. Geography does not define Anglicanism, um it is uh a global body. As I argued there, it is not uh an African communion, it is not an Asian communion, it is not an American communion, but a global communion, because the mandate of uh the Great Commission is to go and make disciples of all nations, and that is where the Anglican Church stands.

SPEAKER_05 21:07

Yeah, now um uh you talked about um uh this reordering is a restoration of the communion to its original structure.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

Oh, sure, clearly the original structure of the Anglican Church was built one on the Bible, the word of God, on our formularies, on uh the book of common prayer, thirty-nine articles of religion, which the Canterbury Communion, as it were, has judges. So the global communion, global Anglican Communion has recovered and restored all this, and that is why we are rejoicing here that the Anglican church is quite confusing.

Domestic Strains In North America

SPEAKER_05 22:01

Now, there was a big applause right at the end for a lovely line that you gave the conference. Why don't you repeat that for us?

SPEAKER_06 22:09

Oh one of the things for which we rejoice about the global Anglican communion is that it has now given us the freedom to worship God as He deserves and not as men desire.

SPEAKER_05 22:28

Let's just ask each of you briefly what have you really appreciated about the conference so far? Let's start with you, Alfred.

SPEAKER_08 22:35

The conference is really about the authority of scripture, the fellowship in uh rooted in the scripture, and people are really obeying the word. There is nothing there like people are being arrogant, or people are being bossy, but people are listening to the spirit. With obedience. It's all focused on scripture. Every small group, and even in the plenary. I really appreciate this standing on the word.

SPEAKER_05 23:10

What have you appreciated, Flavia?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, um, I appreciate when uh during the lunch, I look around for the many people and I have met first time long time when we start to talk about the Gafkan movement, and I can realize how many different histories, how God is having been doing and work with us, in us, and through us. So it is for me, it's a sign of the Holy Spirit touching the church and saying, go ahead and do that that Jesus said to you to do. What have you appreciated, David?

SPEAKER_06 23:47

Oh, yeah. Um the joy of this is all is you see the love and the desire people express to see that the Anglican church remains aflute in its true sense. And that is why people have come from all over the world. Americans are here, English people are here, Australians are here, Africans are here, Asians are here. I mean, we all are united in the love and desire to have the Anglican Communion restored.

Panel: Bible At The Centre

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Thank you very much for talking to us. That's uh Bishop uh David Anoha from the Aweri Province in the Church of Nigeria, uh, Bishop Flavio uh Adair, and uh Flavio's here from the Diocese of Recife, and Bishop Alfred Olwa from Lango in Uganda. My name is Dominic Steele. You're watching us on the Pastor's Heart uh coverage brought to you by Anglican Aid. Go to AnglicanAid.org. Now, next we're going to go just to hear from Richard Condy. And uh, Richard Condy is from Tasmania uh in Australia, and he is also uh a member of the GAFCON Australia Board, and he's speaking to us about uh, well, particularly how the uh conference and the implications of the statement when it's released will have implications for the Australian church. We're on day two of the big conference. Uh, what's your read of the pulse so far, Richard?

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Well, look, uh Dominic, I I think there's a mood for change. You don't call the conference and 350 bishops from around the world come together unless they really want to see something happen. And so I think there's a a mood that the existing structures, the existing way we've operated as a communion is no longer working. I mean, we we see that uh everywhere, and I think people think this is a moment that we might be able to do something uh that will address that and see the change that we need to happen. The sense is that some very serious statements are going to come out in a new direction set. Yes, I think that's right. One of the things I've loved about the GAFCON movement has been its collaborative approach. And uh the Martyrs Day statement came uh to us from a small group, but this is the moment for collaboration. I remember back to 2008, everybody had an opportunity to contribute to the Jerusalem Declaration. Uh, there was a mood that this was ours, and I'm hoping that these uh days will mean that whatever we come up with in that serious statement will be ours, and uh we'll own it and say that this is the thing that we really want to see happen.

SPEAKER_05 26:27

I think there's a real chance of that because of the way the voting system is gonna work. That each paragraph that's suggested, you can say yes, you can say no, you can say yes with these changes.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

Not unless all my uh Michael, who's chairing the uh the statement committee, just showed me a little of how that's going to work, and I think it's I've got lots of good of good hope uh that uh that that be able to capture the mood.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

What are some of the concerns that you have in terms of how this might apply in the Australian context? Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

Look, I think it's very uh there is a mood for change, all right? And uh we're we're we're thinking about what the shape of the communion might be. But Australian Anglicans are connected constitutionally to the Church of England, and there are many other Anglicans around the world who are working in places where that is true.

SPEAKER_05 27:13

And for the Australian Anglicans to change on that, it's such a high bar, it's basically impossible to it it is impossible to do.

Rejecting Failed Instruments

SPEAKER_04 27:21

So, what like what what does it mean then to participate in the constitutional structures which I have pledged before the Lord to uphold uh as my in my role as a bishop? Uh, what does it mean also to be part of the reordering, the restructuring, the the reimagining of how we relate to each other? Because uh when when the Bible speaks about koinonia, about fellowship, about communion with each other, it's talking about a deep spiritual connection, not a structural uh contract. Uh, and so I think we need to work out how that how that uh real partnership starts to work. Okay, you asked the question, what's the answer? Well, uh, well, I I I think it is about defining uh communion or fellowship. Uh, I hear the word around partnership uh as uh as a as a partnership about uh conviction, a partnership in common understanding. Um we we long ago said Anglicans are not people who are part of a particular structure and institution, but people who believe certain things. And I think our uh our fellowship needs to be around those things. That's how the New Testament talks about Koinonia, that's how it talks about uh the faith that's once delivered to the saints, and and we share our fellowship around that that faith.

SPEAKER_05 28:48

Just thinking aloud, the diocese of Sydney has been in impaired communion with Canterbury for a long time. What are the other dioceses that are in impaired communion with Canterbury? Because it perhaps uh I mean it may be that they've already taken that step, or your diocese hasn't taken that step.

Beyond Geography: True Communion

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Well, my my diocese has uh declared that it's in impaired communion with uh with Canterbury, but with uh other dioceses around the world who don't uphold uh and in Australia who don't uphold the doctrine. Uh we've we have made public statements about what we think about uh the Wangarata uh decision of the Appellate Tribunal. Uh we have declared ourselves uh to be in fellowship, not in communion, we can't do that, but in the structural sense, but in fellowship with uh Anglicans in uh the Anglican Church of North America and the Church of Confessing Anglicans in New Zealand. Our synod has taken those uh those decisions. Now, I don't know what the state of all the diocese in Australia are, but I know a number have done that as well, to say actually uh fellowship, gospel fellowship is the important thing here, and um structures should support fellowship, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_05 29:57

Now, you're giving the main Bible talk on the final day of the conference. What are you going to be saying from what part of the scriptures?

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Well, I'm going to be uh preaching from uh 1 Peter chapter 2, uh, which is a section where John is warning uh the early church in Asia Minor that antichrists will come, that those who are opposed to Christ or impersonating Christ come and they are trying to draw people away. And uh and he says they have walked away from us. Uh they they used to be part of us, but they walked away from us. But his antidote to that is to remain in Jesus, to to remember what you have heard from the very beginning and uh and stick to that and remain in Jesus. The word remain uh is uh is been is is used six times in five verses. Uh remain in Jesus, remain in him, remain. Uh, and and that's what I think we need to call each other to do right across the communion. I don't I don't care who you are, if you're an Anglican, you need to remain in Jesus. That's the the important thing, isn't it? And uh and stick to that.

Restoring Original Anglican Foundations

SPEAKER_05 31:07

That is Richard Condy, and he is the Bishop of Tasmania and also a member of the GAFCON Australia Board. That wraps up our coverage from day two of the big GAFCON conference here in Abuja, Nigeria. Uh, my name's Dominic Steele. You've been you've been watching and listening to the Pastor's Heart. And uh, we're brought to you this week by Anglican Aid. Go to anglicanade.org for all the details of the great work that they're doing there.