Yancey: Trauma and devastation after Philip Yancey’s adultery - Condie, Hoyt & Edwards.

How should Christians react to news one of our heroes has engaged in an eight year sinful affair with a married woman?

• How should churches respond when leaders fall? 
• Why do accountability structures fail? 
• How do we speak of grace without minimising harm? 
• What does faithfulness look like for pastors, churches and ordinary believers in moments like this?

Philip Yancey’s confession of an eight-year adulterous affair has shocked the evangelical world. His writing shaped a generation. His failure has caused deep harm.

We begin by hearing from a woman (name withheld) who has walked a similar path — the former wife of a senior ministry leader — as she reflects on betrayal, theology under trauma and the long fallout for families.

Keith Condie, is from Anglican Deaconess Ministries’ Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute. Veronica Hoyt is Director of the Priscilla and Aquila Centre at Sydney’s Moore Theological College. Chris Edwards is the Anglican, Bishop of North Sydney.

Link: Keith and Sarah Condie's marriage course. 

Correction: It was mistakenly said in this episode that Yancey has Alzheimers.  This was a mistake and should have been Parkinsons.  Apologies.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Appeal For Abuja Coverage
• 1:05 Yancey Confession Rocks Evangelicals
• 2:37 Introducing Guests And Focus
• 4:08 A Minister’s Wife Uncovers A Double Life
• 6:29 Shock, Disclosure, And Organisational Fallout
• 9:46 Theology, Pride, And Consequences
• 12:02 Trauma, Devastation, And Rewriting History
• 14:23 Children, Church Accountability, And Anger
• 17:25 Compartmentalised Lives And Hardened Hearts
• 20:14 Grace, Repentance, And Loss Of Trust
• 23:05 Leaders Judged Strictly And Accountability
• 26:09 Can We Still Read The Books?
• 29:05 Caring For The Vulnerable Over Institutions
• 31:29 Prevention: Guarding Hearts And Marriages
• 34:20 Resources, Courses, And Closing Thanks

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:29

Hey, we're taking the pastor's heart on the road, and can you please help fund our coverage of the reordering of the Anglican Communion? We're planning a series of daily broadcasts from Abuja, Nigeria, for the first week in March as the faithful bishops of the Anglican Communion gather to move away from apostasy, colonialism, and Canterbury to a faithfulness to Jesus Christ. We'll be there with a full coverage, and to do that, we need your financial support. Go to thepastorsheart.net and click on the link at the top of the page. My conduct defied everything that I believe about marriage. It was also totally inconsistent with my faith and my writings and caused deep pain for her husband and both of our families. They are the first words of the confession of Philip Yancey about an eight-year adultero, news of which has rocked the evangelical Christian world in the last few days. You look at this photo of him with the Christian books that he has written, and I think he was in, well, the top ten of influential evangelical leaders in the last, well, the previous decade, if not the last one. It is our first Pastor's Heart episode for 2026 and not the episode that we had planned. It's Dominic Steele here. And today we will hear first from the ex-wife of a ministry leader who has lived through what Philip Yancey's wife Janet calls this place of trauma and devastation of being betrayed. She has walked that path of being a senior evangelical minister's wife and then had to grapple with discovering a pattern of adultery and at the same time being a public figure in the church as her world was imploding. We're also joined today by Keith Condy from Anglican Deaconess Ministries, Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute. Veronica Hoyt is with us. She's the director of the Priscilla and Aquila Center at Sydney's Moore Theological College and Bishop Chris Edwards, the Bishop of North Sydney in the Anglican Church. Now, first we're going to get a reaction to the Philip Yancey disclosure from an old friend from 35 years ago. She served 20 plus years in Christian ministry alongside her husband, him in significant pastoral leadership roles, especially to young adults. We're blurring her face on this video for confidentiality. She reached out to me a long time ago to ask about the divorce care course that our church was running and uh told me about this sustained period of extramarital sexual activity that her husband had been engaged in. And uh look, I know that the Philip Yancey thing has brought it all up for you again, but let's start with just your story and how did you discover that your ministry leader husband was engaged in a double life?

SPEAKER_00: 3:55

Um when I discovered information that revealed the truth, um he admitted to it. Uh he did think that he was keeping it all together and that we could go on like that. Um, but I didn't think that that was um being truthful to the ministry organization. So I I um had to tell people what was going on rather than keep the secret and um keep the game going until he wanted he wanted to retire quietly uh five in five years in the future. Um yeah, there's there's no integrity in that situation, so for me, even though he thought there was. Uh yeah, so then because it's a ministry role, um it's it goes out of the personal realm immediately. Uh it has to be dealt with in the ministry organization, in the church that you go to, and meanwhile the family is just crushed, and um it's you know, when you're in shock, emotional or physical shock, you just can't process things um quickly. Uh and so it takes a lot of time, that whole grief process, um, with all those added layers of um marital betrayal. Uh so you're just in a state of shock and um just trying to function, get logistics done. Uh, and we moved on fairly quickly within a matter of a couple of weeks. He did agree to resign from his role. Um, and uh we had to move on then with the separation and the divorce.

SPEAKER_04: 5:41

How did God speak with you to you through all of this?

SPEAKER_00: 5:48

I I mean there's a whole lot of um theology that I think is very helpful. Like it was helpful for me to remember that God um does oppose the proud and that he has very severe um consequences for leaders who um betray their their position. Um and I mean you know, God has still got my husband alive, but there are plenty of other good people who have died. So God is obviously giving my my ex a chance to repent. Um and I have to be open to that. Um but if but it's still true that um people some people go to hell because that's their choice, that's they've chosen to reject uh the you know, the one offer of salvation that they know. Um once you've rejected that, then uh and also taken led little ones astray, you know, the leaders are held to higher account. So um that's should be a a warning to anyone in leadership, um, not to be not to just take people at their word and to be circumspect. I don't know how you guys do it, how you keep each other accountable and how how you when you have a hunch or a feeling like something's not right, how do you pursue that? But um when when when high profile people are surrounded by people who don't question at all or don't even ever think that that could be a possibility, then that just uh creates an atmosphere of um that enables that sort of getting off scot-free, you know, that they can do anything and and be excused. And unfortunately that's a little bit of the rhetoric I feel with this quick forgiveness and um and even in the media at least when they're talking about uh Janet agreeing to caretake her husband because that's her vows.

SPEAKER_04: 8:33

You just mentioned uh Philip's wife Janet. In her statement, she talks of trauma and uh devastation that only people like you who've lived through this are able to understand.

SPEAKER_00: 8:46

Yeah, I'm um my heart goes out to her. Uh her words were devastated and traumatized, and um we can all probably feel what that's like to have the bottom fall out of your world. Um you know, it's like a sudden death, but it's worse because the person standing in front of you is not the person you thought they were. They're a a different person. They're they're um, you know, someone who can lie to your face, who can sleep with you while sleeping with another person, just all that crazy dissonance that you can't reconcile in your heart or your head uh at the time. And it doesn't just uh disappear when someone says, please forgive me or I'm sorry. Your history's changed um permanently. And um I has spent it's still ongoing, even though it's been 10 years for me, that you when you think, when you have memories, you now have to reinterpret those memories and you're re-constantly rewriting your history. Uh, and you can't even trust um what they're telling you because they're so good at lying that they could have been lying about many other things at many other times. So there's absolutely no trust um when someone is so skilled at manipulating and um compartmentalizing like that.

SPEAKER_04: 10:14

We're thinking about uh Philip and Janet Yancey. We're thinking about them as people who've read their books as consumers, but uh the impact is much more for those who are close. Talk to me about the uh the impact of all of this on your family, particularly your kids.

SPEAKER_00: 10:29

Oh, unfortunately, my kids have um uh decided that the church did not help in their situation at all. Um, and so they've given up their their childhood faith. I mean, they were um 2018 and 13 at the time, so um the older one had already um decided that he didn't believe in his parents' faith. Um but they're very they're still very angry at the church for not um keeping him more accountable or doing more um yeah, more accountability with him. In a way, you know, you forgive and you show grace and you show um patient, long-suffering endurance in a marriage that's not perfect, because no marriage is perfect. Um and yeah, I thought that the stress of ministry life and family life as um we went on in life would alleviate the issue, but because there was a a background story that nobody else was a party to that was um fueling his um demeanor, uh then there's nothing we can do about that. That was going to be irredeemable unless he saw the error of his way.

SPEAKER_04: 11:56

The thing I can't get my head around, um, I mean, I can think of the sin in a moment, but what I don't get is of years of leading two lives, of sitting 10 plus hours a week in the study, you, the Bible, the commentaries, preparing to teach God's word, conducting marriages, giving advice to new husbands and wives, doing marriage counseling, and standing up publicly, privately and saying, I believe these things in all sorts of situations, and yet in the end, leading a double life and condemning yourself with your own words. And I've thought that about Yancy and the eight years, but also about your husband. But I mean Yancy has repented, but that's not been the story in your marriage.

SPEAKER_00: 12:42

He developed a new theology because he's so smart, theologically smart, he had justified in his mind what he was doing as being acceptable to God. Um and he did keep going to church and was counseled by um at a different church, counseled by um the pastor there, the minister there, for about a year, and then um apparently stopped going to church and didn't change his views. So um uh and didn't come back to me for um forgiveness or uh offer any uh repentance.

SPEAKER_04: 13:21

There's a lot of senior pastors and other ministry leaders listening, watching us right now around the world. What is the word, the message that you want to say to them today?

SPEAKER_00: 13:33

Yeah, I want to say look after the vulnerable people, the um women and children, or the the people who are in a position of less power. Um, because men can be abused in marriages as well. Um and unfortunately, um just someone saying they're sorry or asking for forgiveness is they're just words. You need to see behavior, you need to see consistent um behavioral change to um to know that the heart has changed. Um and so I think pastors have to be very circumspect and um it you've got to keep the weaker people safe. Um, so you know, keeping putting different partners or ex-partners in different churches um under different leadership uh is one strategy. There are examples where people try to keep their partners in the same church or just in different congregations and in the same circles, and I don't think that's safe for most situations.

SPEAKER_04: 14:39

Thank you for that. Well, we have just heard the lived experience of what uh Janet Yancey calls trauma and devastation. Um, Keith Condie, Anglican Deaconess Ministries. Let's just start with your pastor's heart and reaction there.

SPEAKER_02: 14:55

Uh, that is just awful. It's so awful. The depth of deception, um, the impact, the consequences, a wife, children, the wider Christian community, I mean even the self-deception involved in that. Yeah. Just awful.

SPEAKER_04: 15:13

Gives you a a picture of what might be going on in the Yankee household at the moment, Veronica.

unknown: 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:20

Yeah, just the um the depth of deception, as as you just said, Keith, uh, is is just so awful. Um, and uh the devastation uh just has so many different levels and layers. And um they're all needing to be navigated by uh by Janet, by the family, uh, by people who knew them, uh by people who were impacted by Yancey's ministries. There are just so many layers of devastation here.

SPEAKER_04: 15:50

And and Chris Edwards, no doubt, is I mean, you've reflected on the Yancey thing the last few days, and also um listening to that. I mean, you're a bishop, you're involved in these messy situations.

SPEAKER_03: 16:01

Yeah, sadly I am from time to time. And uh I think what we just heard uh might help some people to understand, these never happen uh to only a couple of people. Uh the ripples will always go out and always wider than you can imagine. And the impact is never short term. Uh it's always uh a painfully long process. And certainly whenever I've been involved in uh these sorts of um sad occasions, uh it's it's always a slow uh and uh painful process.

SPEAKER_04: 16:41

Now, I mean, uh you've been involved in these situations. Um what happens when you get that phone call?

SPEAKER_03: 16:49

Well, um the first thing I do is uh I try to work out um where everyone is in terms of their emotional and spiritual um uh the the resources that they've got. Um, because uh for some people it comes as a complete surprise, a completely out of the blue. Others, it's a growing suspicion that they finally twig to and they get a confession from the person who's been unfaithful. Um and so uh it's just always helpful to work out where they are so you can put support around them that's appropriate and helpful. Um it's I guess a little bit like uh you're doing uh a triage to work out what's the most important and urgent thing to address. Um and then uh I I always seek to um to pray with the people um because one of the things we need to remember is um um our faith needs to be in Jesus Christ. And and when faithfulness in another person has been broken in a relationship like a marriage, you actually need to remember that Christ is always faithful and that uh he never changes. And so going to him in prayer uh will it it's essential. It's absolutely essential. But I also think it will help people to see that they have access to God in this and that the resources that they have available to them are infinite. Um, and that the counseling and the uh advice of others around them, as helpful as it might be, uh you must always maintain uh as a priority your communication with God, the Father who loves us.

SPEAKER_04: 18:33

I mean, it's thinking the cases I'm imagining the cases that you've been involved in where it's a Christian leader who's sinned have been mostly people who've actually had a formal official role in the church. Whereas in the Yancey case, he's had a long role of being critical of the church. And in fact, seasons of not going to church. I understand he's now going to church, but a small little independent church. And I'm just thinking that guy trying to pastor him in this situation, incredibly complex. Um, Keith Condy, what are you thinking about all of this?

SPEAKER_02: 19:07

Um you just think, how does this happen? And then you think, well, you know, the heart is deceitful above all things. But what's gotta happen to someone's conscience that for eight years you can continue in this situation, say all these things to other people, write this stuff in books.

SPEAKER_04: 19:31

Um yeah, I just think Yeah, I mean, I I looked back at his blogs month by month, there's been a blog, you know, and they're pretty good blogs.

SPEAKER_02: 19:41

Yes, and you know, at one level I think, oh, okay, I know my own heart, and I know I know my temptations, and I know um how easy it is for your conscience to become hardened to to things that you know they ought not to be hardened to. But um, but you know, this this really it it's it it is it's as I said, the consequences are so awful, the sense of betrayal. And you know, Chris, you talked about faithfulness, the faithfulness of God. Um you know, this is a breach of everything that we're called to as God's people. You know, we're called to be faithful as He is faithful, and um and you know, when when we are faithful in our marriages, we're being like God, and this is so contrary to that.

SPEAKER_04: 20:30

I feel like it's even worse, and I'll ask you about this, Veronica, because he's kind of made authenticity the hallmark of his writing. Is that is it does you do you feel like that?

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

Yeah, I um I read his autobiography when it came out uh four or five years ago, and I reread his conclusion just over the last weekend.

SPEAKER_04: 20:53

And it's this is in the period that he would have been committing an offer.

SPEAKER_01: 20:55

It would have been four years into this is my calculation. So, you know, right within that period. And his conclusion, in his conclusion, it seemed like he had wrestled with a lot of things in his past. And it felt like he had come to some sense of conclusion about that. And it rang really well. It was authentic in his acknowledgments. He uh thanked his wife for 50 years. He said, you know, this is this book is coming out in the 50th year of our wedding, of our marriage. And so all of that was there. And yet at the same time, I'm reading this and I'm thinking, but you're also in an affair. How can you write this? It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_04: 21:38

I can't get my head around that.

SPEAKER_01: 21:40

No.

SPEAKER_03: 21:41

Chris? Well, I think that it it speaks into the fact that when you keep secrets, uh, you see your heart uh and you then create compartments. And I think um that is what what whether it's Philip Yancy, other other authors um and church leaders and Christian celebrities who've fallen in this same direction have gone. They've had uh secret lives. Uh that's no different, actually, to local church leaders who've failed in this, or husbands and wives who've failed in this area. They create a secret life, they uh they compartmentalize their heart and they sear it so that they can have, they kid themselves, they can have two existences. Um and I think that it's really important for people to maintain a transparency and uh uh an accountability. Um there are some practical things you can do there to guard against it.

SPEAKER_04: 22:43

Um yet somebody said to me the other day, you're only as accountable as you allow yourself to be. This is a matter of the heart.

SPEAKER_03: 22:52

This is a matter of the will.

SPEAKER_04: 22:53

So we can put up the denomination or whatever, can put up all the systems you like.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

Well, yeah, people can have their professional supervisors, they can have their close friends, but if you don't open your mouth and say what's going on, and that's why I say you've you've hardened that part of your heart. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 23:09

You you've deliberately constructed that, and you're you you've got to be prepared and willing to um to break that down yourself. And that's why I say prayer is so important, because coming before God in open and honest prayer is the first step to um breaking down those barriers in your heart. If you're not prepared to do that, then you you will just keep hardening your heart.

SPEAKER_04: 23:36

But I mean, Veronica, I haven't gone and opened, I mean, I've got my copy of The Jesus I Never Knew on the table here, but um, I haven't been able to bring myself to read it like you have the last day or two. Um I'm just thinking, I don't know how he could have written what he wrote that so persuaded you four years ago that it was that felt so authentic to you four years. I just don't know how you could do it, do you know?

SPEAKER_01: 24:04

Yeah, and I think it goes back to what Chris has just said. It's a master life. That's right, exactly right. That somehow, um, I mean, we're just assuming here, uh, but at the same time, it seems like um there were just different parts to his life. And so you've you've got your book writing life, and this is what you write when you write your books. It might have been his speaking life, which you know would have been had its own um characteristics. And then you have your private, your marriage, your relationships with friends. Um, but as Chris is saying, if we are not willing to allow God's word to be across all of those things and not allowing God's word to actually lodge deeply within our hearts, then I think it's really easy for us to just have this little section of our lives that is separate from everything else. And I think that's what's been going on.

SPEAKER_04: 24:59

Um Keith, uh, I mean, Yancey's the author of What's So Amazing About Grace. I mean, his name is synonymous with grace. Yes. And when I think Grace, an amazing grace, I I think of him. And and so I do want to, as I begin this conversation, say, oh, grace needs to apply to him, and yet there is a complexity here, and particularly for the leader.

SPEAKER_02: 25:26

Yeah, there is. Um Grace is wonderful, and without grace, um, we're all in trouble. We're all in deep trouble. And without grace, Philip Yancey's in deep trouble. And um, you mentioned you think there's been genuine repentance, uh, which is very different to the story we heard earlier.

SPEAKER_04: 25:46

Well, he says there's been genuine repentance in his statement. Um I I'm not sure what I think, do you know? Um but uh but he says it, and it is quite different to the story. You're quite right, it's quite different to the story of that.

SPEAKER_02: 25:59

Very different. And if there is, of course, if there's genuine repentance, we should take it on face value.

SPEAKER_04: 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:05

Um, God's forgiveness knows no bounds, and that's a wonderful, beautiful thing. Um, of course, there's still other consequences. And, you know, is is this man like he stepped down from his um writing and whatever whatever other roles are.

SPEAKER_04: 26:21

He's immediately declared that as a consequence, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:23

Um which is fitting consequence?

SPEAKER_04: 26:25

Well, fitting consequence, but he has got Alzheimer's and he is 74, so he was going to step down pretty soon anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 26:31

Okay. Sure.

SPEAKER_04: 26:33

Um uh we have the issue though, in other pastoral cases, of grace being extended and yet no trust now extended. Can you talk to us? Because that's part of the you're one of the rule setters in this area. You're of wanting to say grace, but also I can't trust that.

SPEAKER_03: 26:54

I'll be a rule setter, uh, Dominic, but I I do see that uh there's an issue of um repentance, uh, an issue of grace, and then trust is this other thing. Um and uh grace is something that God lavishes on us. Repentance is our response um when we've uh uh convicted of sin. And it's not simply a confession, repentance uh is always a changed behavior, it's it's it's a complete change of direction. Um, so all those things need to line up. When you see the fruit of repentance, you can start to rebuild trust. But that's in human terms. Um it's only as we see repentance lived out and somebody said to me that rebuilding of trust is like moving Bondi Beach with a fork. Yeah, it is. That's why I say it's it takes years. It is a very, very slow process. You shouldn't expect this to be quick. The the issue of rebuilding trust is why it's necessary, I think, for leaders who fail like this to step out of their ministry. It's it's why uh that the the loss of trust is um where families need to work together to see how repentance is being uh um fleshed out. Because that's where when you see that repentance at work, you'll you'll be able to rebuild trust without repentance, without change in behavior, without that change of direction entirely, then trust will never be rebuilt. And simply saying the words is not repentance, that's confession.

SPEAKER_04: 28:31

Take us to the scriptures and just help help me understand some of these ideas of teachers will be judged more strictly, the teachers worthy of double honour, uh, and yet those who sin will be rebuked publicly. Um discuss.

SPEAKER_02: 28:48

This is it, isn't it? Um this is a shepherd of God's flock. Um those in that shepherding role have a particular responsibility. It's an it's a it's an awesome responsibility, and that's a wonderful privilege. Okay, so a noble task. But at the same time, uh, you get this wrong. The consequences are so severe for so many people.

SPEAKER_04: 29:12

And um And the bigger the platform, the bigger the consequences.

SPEAKER_02: 29:16

Absolutely, you know, the harder the fall for us.

SPEAKER_01: 29:21

Yeah, um speaking as uh a sheep within you know God's family, I think it's important for um anyone who is in ministry, um, particularly those who are preaching God's word, to keep remembering that they are also sheep before they are a shepherd. Uh and that as you are that and that they are and that they need to sit under God's word uh as much as they preach God's word. And if that is happening, then I think there is less possibility of that um spiritual drift. And so again, I think just keep remembering we are sheep, we're all sheep. We all need you know God's word, whether we the whether we are the senior preacher, whether we have a large platform, um, we all need God's word.

SPEAKER_04: 30:08

I mean, just as you say that, I was just thinking of um uh it's only happened to me once, but um somebody rang me up at seven o'clock in the morning and said, Dominic, I'm not fit to preach this morning. Um uh I had enormous row with my wife last night. Um I shouldn't be in the pulpit um today. Uh can you handle it? Um and I actually have thought that was a good moment of integrity, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 30:42

Yeah, Chris. That's accountability, it is. Um going back to the earlier question, I in in our denomination, when you um are put into a position of leadership ordained as a uh a leader in the church, um, there are some fairly sobering words read from the various parts of the scriptures to charge you when you read them.

SPEAKER_05: 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:04

And uh a habit that we've got into here in Sydney is when a minister commences uh a new uh in a new parish, then we remind them of those promises and we go over those, well, they're vows that are made. And every time we do, uh I'm stunned at the silence in the room because of the weight of the commitment that a leader is taking on. And and I think it's a great habit to be reminded of the significance of leadership. And whether whether it's uh an unfaithfulness in a marriage or a failure in behavior, you you need to be very, very careful. I think the the the preacher that rang you and said, I can't get into the pulpit, is showing an integrity that that's really important. You probably went immediately to how do I cover this. But you've you've you've got to then work out how do we actually help this person uh to deal with whatever that problem, that issue is. Uh, now that it's been shared, it can't be left. It you you need to keep moving and working with it together. And um, that's where I think that accountability, transparency, uh having an open calendar, an open diary, uh, and a shared life is it's so important, it's vital.

SPEAKER_04: 32:23

What should our response now be to his books? To I mean, I'm thinking Ravi Zacharias's books, Roy Clemens' books, um Philip Yancey's book. You I mean, you've read it this weekend, but but then I didn't feel like reading it. Yeah. What do you think in terms of what's your ongoing response going to be towards his books?

SPEAKER_01: 32:44

Well, I think trust has been broken. And so I think it's really difficult uh to read those books now uh and be able to trust uh the person who wrote them. Uh now the words that he wrote uh are still true, uh, and yet I think personally I don't think I could read them again.

SPEAKER_04: 33:04

Yeah, not sitting, I mean you were reading them as a critic the other day. That's right. But but not to sit under them as a student, which is the way I've read them in the past. That's right. Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 33:16

Yeah, you know, they're still some great illustrations. I just think back how I used some of those books and found them very helpful. Yeah. And um, and you know, perhaps at that point in his life there was an integrity to his character, and he's fallen from that. So, yeah, so I don't know. That's it's a good question, Dominic. I don't think I can think I need to reflect on.

SPEAKER_03: 33:39

Chris, well, I think um all every author I've read is uh apart from the Lord Jesus, uh and every preacher you've heard is flawed. Absolutely, absolutely. And so I think that uh uh it's it's really what they've written uh is is helpful and useful, and you probably should, but as Veronica said, it's a question of trust. And uh you can only rebuild that trust when you see the fruit of repentance. Um and unfortunately with these famous authors, uh well, Ravi Zacharias is no longer alive, so it's impossible to see how he may have changed. It's with Philip Yancey, I I doubt we'll ever hear from him again publicly. So it's hard to know how that will have an embassy.

SPEAKER_04: 34:25

And if you did, and if you did, it would be a carefully media managed moment.

SPEAKER_03: 34:28

Yeah, so it's very it's very difficult to rebuild that trust in in them. Um I do remember when Roy Clements' um books went on sale at a very low price after uh it was made public about$25 a commentary to$2 a commentary. That's right, that's right. Um and so uh I I think I picked up a few at that low price and found a lot of what he was explaining from the scriptures was very helpful, but I don't have the opportunity to rebuild trust because I I I don't know, I just don't know the man.

SPEAKER_04: 35:03

I only know him as an author. Well, I mean, what you read nowadays is that his trajectory has continued.

SPEAKER_05: 35:09

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04: 35:10

Um what about care? I mean, the woman we spoke to made the point about the church's temptation is to, if you like, care for the organization rather than care for the vulnerable and care for the weak one in that situation. Um you're not in keeping.

SPEAKER_02: 35:29

Right, we've just got to get alongside these people and offer them whatever support. Just not abandon people in their, you know, hour of real need.

SPEAKER_01: 35:39

I think it's important as well that we're not just there in the short term, but that we see this as being long-term support. Uh, there's a lot of things that you need to do in the short term. As Chris mentioned, there's the all the uh triaging that we need to do, and you know, what do they need in that immediate moment? But this is a long-term um struggle, and there's going to be long-term repercussions, and they need us uh to be there for the long term uh in those various stages of dealing with it.

SPEAKER_04: 36:11

Positive story on this. Um, I remember going to Washington and Mark Deva was showing me around, and we were standing on the roof of Capitol Baptist Church, and he said, Oh, we own those, I don't know, five houses there. And I said, Oh, who's in them? And um, I was expecting him to tell me about and he and he said, actually, um, Roy Clemens' ex-wife is staying there at the moment and um in one of them. And uh I just said, Oh, that's lovely that um there's this evangelical leader in the UK who's fallen, and and yet the wider Christian community has got behind and cared for and loved um uh his wife in that situation. I mean, there's a there's a positive story to balance that negative one that we heard earlier. Yeah. So um, in terms of prevention, um, I mean, w you talked about accountability, but I I I don't think accountability on its own is the answer at all. What what do we do?

SPEAKER_02: 37:10

Have you heard of that 12 steps to an affair? Have you heard of it?

SPEAKER_04: 37:14

I have, but it's a long time ago. So remind me.

SPEAKER_02: 37:16

Okay, step one is the only one we need to be really concerned about. Readiness.

unknown: 37:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:21

Okay. So there's something going on, an emotional readiness, uh, that someone's sort of leaning out of the marriage and is looking for something else. And that readiness, we just got to be alert to that. And and I think you know how Proverbs five to seven particularly talks a lot about adultery and its danger. And I think I think there's two things that really come through from that from that passage. Um one is the the protection of our heart. You spoke about the heart, Chris, guarding the heart above all else. Um treasuring God's commands in your heart. Uh just just not allowing that conscience to be seared, the heart to be seared. Um, but just that constant, the teacher constantly saying, you know, keep my commands. Um we've just got to have that that willingness to engage with the word of God in a way that it touches our heart deeply. And then I think the other thing it talks about, it talks about being uh speaking to the man, be intoxicated by your wife. You know, it talks about the marriage and treasuring your marriage and investing in your marriage and protecting and guarding your marriage. And I think that word intoxicated, if the um my Hebrew's gone, but but if the uh ESV footnote is correct, it says be led astray, let her lead you astray, or you know, uh overwhelm you with um keep your keep your desire for her. And I just I think anything we can do to protect and work on our marriages and and the importance of emotional connection, that sense of safety, that sense of deep um this is the person who feeds, you know, feeds me. The Lord feeds my soul, and this person feeds me emotionally um as well. Um so a blatant plug, we've got a marriage course. Many people have found it very helpful. And and I just think you will link to it in the show notes here. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I just think something like these, these are the things we need. We need that, and we just need that spiritual investment, you know, just keep working on our relationship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_04: 39:40

Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us. Our guests on the Pastor's Heart, Chris Edwards, the Bishop of North Sydney. Veronica Hoyt, she's with the Priscilla and Aquila Centre at Sydney's Moore Theological College, and Keith Condy, who leads the mental health and pastoral care initiative of Anglican Deaconess Ministries. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on The Pastor's Heart, and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.