How to revolutionise your church towards a 5% conversion target - Brett Middleton, Ben Molyneux and Dan Au

How to turn around evangelistic stagnation in your church — or how to start pursuing a 5% goal?

Across Australian Evangelicalism there is a bold goal — growing our churches by 5% per year through conversion growth.

But some pastors are asking:  “We haven’t seen anyone become a Christian here in years… where do we even start?”

We talk:

• Should we even have an evangelism target?
• What are the theological issues?
• How do you start when conversions have been rare?
• What cultural changes actually make a difference?
• Funnels, programs and “conversion engines.”
• And how to build momentum with stories, prayer and team alignment.

Three pastors who are right at the beginning of the journey, Brett Middleton (St Luke’s Miranda),
Ben Molyneux (St Faith’s Narrabeen) and Dan Au (Cornerstone Kogarah) — We set an evangelism target - Now what? 

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Chapters

• 1:05 The 5 Percent Goal Explained
• 2:26 Why Targets Aren’t Telling God What To Do
• 3:58 Apprehension And Honest Reality Checks
• 6:30 Should We Count Conversions
• 9:52 Defining A Conversion And What To Track
• 12:22 Focusing Resources On Real Evangelism Engines
• 14:29 Pivoting Programs For Better Outcomes
• 16:54 Assessment Windows And Measuring Fruit
• 19:00 Demographic Gaps And Young Adult Momentum
• 21:52 Raising Mission Heat Among Over‑40s
• 24:42 Stories That Stir A Church
• 26:51 Counting, Recommitments, And Stickiness
• 29:39 Don’t Be Mastered By Five Percent
• 32:08 Culture Over Departments: Mission As Core
• 34:16 Prayer And A Call To Action For Teams

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:37

We set an evangelism target, but now what? I am imagining quite a few ministers are thinking, wow, a 5% goal. Did we do that? Did we say that? We haven't seen anyone converted in years. So what do we do? Where do we start? It is the Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele, our guests today, Brett Middleton, Ben Molyneux, and Dan Or. The Sydney Anglican Synod has set a target of growing by 5% per year against average service attendance through conversion growth. Here's how Archbishop Rafael outlined it to the Synod in September.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

The 5% number arises from a national conversation that has been initiated by the Gospel Coalition Australia across like-minded denominations. It is not a way of telling God what to do. It is a way of making every local church ask, what should we do? And the answers will be as different as the churches. In a church of 300, a prayerful goal of 15 new Christians in church every year for five years is enough to create real change. In a church of 80 people, a prayerful goal of 5% growth in new believers would be thinking about four people a year. And that might not require a revolution in what is happening now, but it might be a spur and a focus and generate prayer and expectation and perseverance in the work of making Jesus known to others.

SPEAKER_04: 2:07

That's Sydney Archbishop, Archbishop Kanishka Raffle. In parallel to that, the Gospel Coalition Australia has set a target of doubling the number of evangelicals in Australia over 20 years. Something that could only be achieved through most of our congregations having a conversion rate of 5% against average service attendance. Now, I know there are people watching around the world, and some I've spoken to have been encouraged by this bold step forward, and so perhaps your individual staff team or congregation is thinking, how could we do that? How could we adopt that 5% benchmark conversion goal as well? Well, Brett Middleton of St. Luke's Miranda is with us, Ben Molyneux of St. Faith's in Narrabeen, and Dan Au, who is the site pastor for Cornerstone Presbyterians Campus at Cogra. Now, let us start with the Pastor's Heart, gentlemen. And um actually, when I raised this coming on and having this conversation with each of you, each of you were a little apprehensive. And uh well, let's start with you, Brett. Why apprehensive?

SPEAKER_05: 3:06

Um, I think when you first raised it with me, you you you wanted some people who uh were achieving the 5% uh already. And um we had the conversation said I'm just I'm not that guy, you know, our church isn't seeing that many conversions every year. I could probably do the other podcast, which is the um talking to guys who who aren't achieving it and how how we're moving forward. So I guess at a heart level, it's the feeling of um uh yeah, I'm I'm I'm I you know you don't always feel like you belong in the conversation when you're a church that's struggling to see people, particularly adults, uh coming to Christ. Um, but there's there's something energizing about it as well. Five percent. I don't know how you guys find Ben.

SPEAKER_01: 3:47

Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, uh similar feelings uh to what Brett just expressed. I think Brett threw me under the bus and suggested I come on the show as well. Thanks for hearing you. Uh and yet there's something about seeing people converted that actually just stirs my heart and uh and just reminds me of what we're doing and why we're doing it. And so seeing people converted is the thing that fires me up in front of the case. And so yours too saying I'm not there yet, but I want to be. Not there yet, but yeah, definitely want to be.

SPEAKER_04: 4:15

Yeah, and I mean, Dan, yeah, you're a Presbyterian watching us have this congreg conversation of the Anglicans is exactly what your pastor's heart.

SPEAKER_02: 4:23

Well, I used to train in a in an Anglican college, and but now I'm in a Presbyterian church. Um, I mean, we're known as a denomination for many wonderful things, you know, like worship and good governance and all the rest. Good governance. But listen, when it comes to reaching out and when it comes to making disciples, especially conversion growth, we we are not always on the front foot of that in a vibrant sort of way. And so, very much like Brett shared, I where there's a great deal of fear and trepidation in terms of coming into this conversation. Um, I don't think the 5% uh benchmark has been something that's at the forefront of our minds, and particularly for the Cogra context, we're a fairly new church. We've only been just around for four years, you know, um, as a site location plant of the Cornerstone Church family. And therefore, as we've uh seen growth in terms of uh people coming to our church, the uh impetus and the agenda for evangelism, it always remains to be a challenge. And that's why I'm sort of scared but also excited about this conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 5:19

So, Brett, um uh, should we have an evangelistic target? Um, and as you kind of first raised it with your staff team, um to play that conversation. I mean, just just pretend. This is just us. How'd the conversation go?

SPEAKER_05: 5:33

Um, people are uh have some squeamishness about a 5% conversion target. And I think naturally I would have something similar. And yet I think as a church, we count almost everything else with a clear conscience. We count how much money people give, how many people came to church, uh, we count our baptisms and conversions, we count how many funerals and weddings we might do in any given year, we count how many people are in our Bible study groups, and none of that has the same vibe, yet all of that is equally a work of the Holy Spirit within our church. Uh so to a conversions. Um I'm really willing to count conversions, yeah. Partly because of uh the shame I had when we did a church uh consult. Five years ago became rector, did the consult, um, comes back with a grid of you know, greens and oranges and reds, depending on how well you're doing across various um areas of church life, and came back expecting this will reveal you know how great this church is that I've been part of for 10 years, that I'm now the rector of. Um and there was a sea of you know, oranges and greens and one grey box with a big question mark in it, which was how many people have come to faith, how many adults have come to faith? And that was the one thing that I couldn't give an answer to to our shame, just to think that the most important thing that our church should be doing, the reason God has planted a church on this corner of Miranda is like to see the loss welcomed into a healthy church. Yeah, um, it was the one thing we weren't paying attention to. So um happily five percent goal, great, keep me accountable.

SPEAKER_01: 7:08

Ben uh in counting, yeah. Yeah, I think the again, I think my reflection is yes, of course, I think we want to we want to count, we want to make sure that we uh I agree with everything Brett said there. Newcomers, of course, we count newcomers who come in the door. Uh why wouldn't we count the people who have made first-time professions of faith? Um, I think the hesitation from a lot of people is they feel that that's taking away the sovereignty of God or something like that. If you set a goal or you uh you're you're looking at a particular number uh that you might be limiting God or playing God, but really it's just helping us drive that mission heat in a way that helps us to do what we're called to be doing as a church, promoting the gospel and seeing people saved.

SPEAKER_04: 7:57

I mean, I'm just thinking that line, you count what you value, but also they did count your necks.

SPEAKER_02: 8:03

Yeah, that's right. We I I love our denomination as a as I love being a Presbyterian uh pastor. Uh but there is some vital areas there to work on and to improve. One of the things is that each year we have to submit to church officers what we call a form S, which describes all our statistics. That's what the S stands for, is statistics on the attendance, statistics on the uh demographic breakdown and so on. But the one thing that it doesn't ask for uh is the number of conversions. And so I really relate to that, that need and that urgency and the importance, the the celebration value. Part of the part of it is the complexity of the task. What is a conversion? You know, you have a person who comes from the United Church over and get and believes in the gospel, would that be a conversion like that? Or having a person with like a reformed you know journey, would that count as a conversion? Recommitments absolutely as well, but like how do we draw that uh line? But I do think that it is worth um uh having the criteria for what makes a gospel transformed person, maybe over a period of time. And I really like what you said before, Ben, about just having it like a two-year measurement, you know what I mean? So that you see the fruit because it's not the numbers that are as beautiful as the as the story behind that number. Um, and it's a bit like gardening, isn't it? Like you just you don't want you don't just want to see new plans and buds grow, but the overall uh beauty of the garden is really what uh what you want to value. So that's what I'd say.

SPEAKER_04: 9:31

Tell us about the conversation and how it's played out in your context, uh Ben.

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

Yeah, and Narrabin, I think the 5% hasn't been uh hasn't jarred our staff team at all. I think there's not that we're achieving it, but just the setting a goal and uh having something to aim towards, I think has been an encouragement for our staff team. Uh we've been part of the Reach Australia network for the last sort of four or five years, and uh they've been helping us to think through what what is healthy with regards to the number of conversions. And so I think those uh conversations have probably enabled this you know more recent move by the synod to help us to receive that five percent and to to work towards achieving that together.

SPEAKER_04: 10:15

And Dan, what about you as you look on and what have you thought? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:20

Well, the five percent is not something that's been on the forefront of our minds or our agenda. We haven't pushed like a through-a-synod type of influence to actually it's really just what's going on in your private discussions here. Yeah, uh in-house, I guess, behind the leadership, it's always good to sort of aim for certain like numbers and percentages. Um, but I we've noticed that as a church plant uh who's been around for now for just a few years, we've tried a lot of ways to reach out, uh, evangelistically and uh missionally, um, through conversations, connections, and so on. But now that the resource is expansive, like it, we we we are investing in so much different ideas here and there. It's actually quite uh we feel the burden of having to bring some sort of focus, I guess, at least for us at Cogra. So we do have the the weekly play group and we've got the Christmas events, we've got community exposure and so on. But the the resource uh question is is really uh quite key. Uh we had a meeting with our ministry leaders uh a few months ago, and we identified the the gap in the flow uh of newcomers to uh mature Christians in our church. Where is the gap uh most evident? And we noticed that it was in the conversion aspect where we're quite good at the connect and the contact, pretty good with church life and the equipping. But when it came to actually seeing people save, the expectation, like you said, we noticed that there was something quite glaring. And so we had to do something about that.

SPEAKER_04: 11:48

Brett, what about you there? How have you what's the next stage of the conversation in your team? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 11:53

Yeah. Uh uh, so I think um uh with our team, but it's asking questions around, first of all, uh uh the does the church understand the purpose of the church? I said this is the cultural question. Um, well, actually, taking a step back from that, I'd probably say it's it's a real heart question for each of the staff. Yes, like we have a burning desire to see um people come to Christ um across all the seasons of uh their lives, and then a staff alignment question. Do we all agree on uh definitions and targets and that we as a staff And whether or not we should have a target, whether or not we should have it and play that discussion out for us, yeah. Um Yeah, that that discussion wasn't difficult. I think the difficulty comes when you're you start to say because of the target, this is where resources get allocated. And then you start to get a bit of playing off of uh, but there's there's various goods that the church is doing. And to be able to say, but but we've all agreed on the greater good of seeing seeing the loss saved. I think I think that's the more challenging staff alignment discussion. What have been some of the awkward discussions there? Um, probably around you know, uh beloved programs, you might say. And to say uh um this program, uh I guess in the back of our minds is a coalface meaning the community program. Are we seeing any people translate from that program into um our evangelism engines, into the church life? Um, is it is it working as part of the pathway or not? Um, which you you try not to have the discussion of should it exist or not, but what what are we doing within it? And uh can we have better alignment on the purpose of the program, people saying this is why it exists, do we have the right people that are part of it? Um are we um uh we we've had the similar discussion.

SPEAKER_04: 13:40

We we we we've had an art show called the Heart of Annandale art show for a number of years. And it's been really good in terms of culture of awareness of our church, but we've actually had to ask the hard question has it actually led to anybody be saved? Do you know? And and it's uh been a major effort to put on. And so we've just pressed pause on that, you know. Um we've not necessarily abandoned it forever, but we've just pressed pause and we we found crazily we we ran a um a carnival on the 31st of October, which happened to be the same night as Halloween, and there was just kids everywhere walking up and down our suburban streets. Yeah. And we've had um one new family join Sunday morning and another kid come to youth group, and I thought, oh, actually, for much, much less effort, we've had a significantly better result.

SPEAKER_02: 14:38

Yeah, we can relate to that. I mean, in uh Kogra has uh enjoyed a great location. Our site is uh opposite a large area hospital and adjacent to the square. And for the first couple of years of our starting uh Cornerstone Cogra, we've featured a large exposing Christmas event out in the community, which drew like a lot of people. Yeah, and for a few hours. Um lots of goodwill, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Lots of um uh like light contact uh uh exposure of our name to the community, which is great. But as we assessed uh in previous years that's passed, we noticed that there's been so much effort that's been put in, but for fairly little outcome or result of people who've joined the church. Uh, and that's what's led us this year to sort of pivot our evangelism strategy. We still have the Christmas outreach event, but it's a lot more light touch and low-key, you know what I mean? Uh inviting our friends and family and things like that, you know, to uh we still have something on in the square, especially when we got council approval for it, um, and the grant as well that goes with it. So that's been that's been uh an encouraging pivot.

SPEAKER_04: 15:48

What are some of the programs you've had to sort of say this is helping us as a funnel event and this one isn't? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 15:55

Um well it it starts, I think, for us is by uh defining which are the real uh conversion engines within our church life and allowing those to be a bully in our calendar and shifting everything to the side. Uh so that would be for us uh Explore Life, which we try we run twice a year at the moment. Um, and uh that becomes a big you know focal point. We we make sure there's not other programs, even in the lead up to that, that it's just drawing energy and attention away. So it just gets pride of place in our church calendar. Um uh and also our services to think they're they're really the secondary regular conversion engine that we want to have. Uh so we always want our services to um have an eye to those who are seeking out Jesus. So it's partly for us thinking these are the ones uh that um get to be the bully in the calendar around everything else. Um we we haven't uh had to really close down anything, but we have shifted the way we think about some of them. So for instance, Christmas and Easter were for us um something that we thought this is where the loss can be saved. Uh we've noticed plenty of people uh who are not Christians coming along, but no one translates from them into uh anything further. So we've changed how we think about them, which changes how we resource them, to okay, we want them to be uh places where people's you know evangelistic muscles are exercised. Uh so they become uh places where our our regulars are encouraged to invite people. It gets the flywheel and the energy of evangelism going rather than thinking this is going to translate directly to our our explore life course. So it does change how you resource them and the expectations that you have on particular programs.

SPEAKER_04: 17:33

How's it thinking about playing out for you, Ben?

SPEAKER_01: 17:34

Yeah, look, I think at Narrowbean, we probably haven't done the work yet on uh reviewing the different ministries and different outreach programs that we have. Though one just reflection, I suppose, in just hearing us talk about this is some of the uh some of our longer-term programs. We run a thing called the Community Pantry that we've run, uh, a meal for people in need in our local community. Uh you know, we don't see people necessarily becoming Christians at that, but it does provide wonderful opportunity to express the love of Christ in our wider community. And I was reminded this year, we had um uh one man become a Christian recently uh in August. And he's been a part of our church community for about 10 years, just in and out over the course of those 10 years, in different uh parts of um different ministries, coming along to church regularly, but it was a really long time of uh friendship, building relationship with him, uh, to get him to even come along to our Discover course, which finally happened, and then he became a Christian. So I'm just reminded as we talk about the different programs and even the art show that you talk about, getting people on site and having those opportunities uh to be Christians in and invite um the community onto your church grounds is just a wonderful opportunity in and of itself to start those relationships that might take a long time for people to turn to Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 18:54

One of the things that 5% does provide with our programs is assessment windows. So I think about my kids' minister who'll say, We're gonna we're gonna restart this playtime thing that we've had a crack at at various times over the decades. Um, but if we haven't seen people come from playtime into our wider church life within three to five years, um we're gonna make the call that it's it's not working. We're we're not at the stage of sort of we know which ones to close down. We're at the stage of we know how to assess them uh in the finite time that we have. Are we doing the right things to see the loss saved?

SPEAKER_04: 19:28

Um how are you seeing it play out amongst the different demographics? Um I mean, we're hearing, and we had a conversation here the other day, um, about uh the wave of interest we're getting amongst the young adults, and particularly young adult men. But we're not seeing the same wave um with the older demographics, and yet I want to increase uh I mean I'll give you our one. W the easy thing for us to say would be to say we want to see ten ten people become Christian this year, you know. Um but it's a harder thing for us to say we want to see five people connected with our evening congregation become Christian this year. And here's the hard one we want to see five people connected with our morning congregation become Christian this year because we're not as active in that demographic. Yeah, Ben.

SPEAKER_01: 20:23

Uh yeah, so again at Narrowbean, I think we're following the trend of what we're seeing in wider Sydney and maybe around the world, is that we are uh noticing a lot of young adults in particular and praise God coming to church. Um we were part of uh the Hope for the Beaches campaign with the Anglican churches across the beaches uh during August, and that was a wonderful opportunity where we saw uh we had an event for young people uh at St. Luke's grammar school, and there were many people who responded to the gospel on that night. The senior ministers were cooking the sausages that day, so uh we got to experience it as well just from uh from behind the distance. Yeah. But it was a wonderful uh night, but it but yeah, it was targeted really obviously at the young people in our community. Um I I think probably uh the uh from again from a narrowband perspective, we have connections with the uh Warriwood Anglican village, uh with the the Warvetts, Upper Coloro Plateau. Uh, we have chaplains in each of those uh villages, and uh thinking through evangelistic strategies for those villages is something that we need to do work on into the future because there are just great opportunities in each of those with full-time chaplain uh chaplaincy teams.

SPEAKER_04: 21:37

But how do we raise the the mission heat amongst that over 40 demographic Brett?

SPEAKER_02: 21:45

We resonate a lot with that demographic dilemma that you've just posed. Uh one of the special things, it's not unique to Cornerstone, but one of the things that I love about our church is that we are an intergenerational local church community. And it's maybe for that reason, dominantly, that we haven't um uh started an evening service just yet, because we wanted to preserve the intergenerational dynamic. The upside, of course, is that the community really gets to know each other well, like the families and older uh demographics um ministering to the younger and so on. But the challenging thing is, therefore, is that it seems to be one segment of the demographic, like the young adults who come to the evangelism events to discover courses and so on. Now, fortunately, we've realized almost even by accident that by uh by us running a variety of evangelistic uh uh programs and activities, um, we've actually seen folks in the older demographics, the 40-year-olds and above, who've joined uh our church since. So, most recently, for example, we've started uh an easy English ministry on a Sunday afternoon, which has drawn together some seniors. And we also have uh small, uh, I guess smaller groups from existing growth groups, connect groups, what we what we call them, uh, to take a group of people aside and actually do Christianity explained with them. Uh so that we have found more traction, I suppose, but it's it's not a uh widespread church announced kind of thing, but it it does get notified. But um, these are the kinds of strategies that we've noticed that has has actually produced some fruit.

SPEAKER_05: 23:14

Yeah. Um one practical thing that we have done is being intentional about the the groups of people that we invite into our um our Explore Life course who are already Christians. So um it's an open invite, obviously, and people are inviting their their friends in, but then grabbing particular Bible study groups and saying, Would you like to come along this time around? And um for people who have been part of that and have seen people come to Christ there, yeah, and uh by the grace of God, it's been various age groups who who have come to Christ in that. I think it's good for them to be able to see it and just say, like, God is not done with me because I've hit a certain age and not done with my networks. Um and then they're chatting at morning tea about what what I saw happen last year. And and they can next time around, they'll they'll they'll sort of I'm gonna bring a friend to this one because I've seen it play out. Um the reality at St. Luke's is I would say the further you get from youth group, um, the just the less people you're seeing become Christians around you. So last year we had 30 under 18s become Christians, five over eighteens become Christians. So this is this vast discrepancy. So you want to see that, you've got that same d dilemma of the the demographic thing that I'm talking about. Yeah. Yes. And um, but the the more people can see that the spirits of work and Jesus is calling people home, whether that's live at the group or whether it's being celebrated up the front, um, I think that goes some way to get the energy happening across across age groups.

SPEAKER_01: 24:44

I'll just um jump in and say I think one of the things that we've identified is that we as a staff team get very excited when we hear of people who have become Christians, but we need to work harder at telling the stories. And so I don't think we've uh this is something that we're looking in the future, is just how do we each month highlight uh whether it's a video or a personal testimony of someone on a video or in the flesh or something like that, that just helps the wider church to feel oh, God is on the move, God's doing something. People are being converted. The the gospel really is seeing people move from death to life and actually share the stories. And yeah, whether they're uh of an older demographic or a younger demographic, um, I think for anyone at this point, just seeing people converted is a great encouragement for Christians, and it really does stir their faith in Christ and stirs their trust in the gospel that it that it that it works in seeing people move from death to life.

SPEAKER_04: 25:37

That line of um stats are for staff and stories of the congregation. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 25:42

I think we are about as good as the stories that we tell. And uh the great advantage about being a site or a lead pastor is that you do have control over what gets displayed on the Sunday service. And so what we've done occasionally and regularly uh at COGRA was to feature our stories, even if they're just newcomers, you know what I mean? Just to introduce them like we did the other day uh for a Sunday, we just brought a couple of gentlemen up who introduced themselves. Uh, they're from a different ethnic background, right? And uh it's just that visual of just expecting people who um have walked in through the doors of the church, who found us, found out about us through the website and through friends, uh, has been just greatly encouraging, I guess. It just helps, I guess, feed the mission heat.

SPEAKER_04: 26:21

How do you count them?

SPEAKER_05: 26:24

Uh conversions. Yeah. Uh yeah, this is this is one of the things we're working on this year. We we just did our kind of quarterly reviews and heading to 2026. What are we going to get get into? And our mission pastor said, like, one thing we're gonna have to get really clear on is our definitions of um what what what will we count? Um and so that um that will be for us. It's someone who's made a profession of faith and who remains part of a worshiping community in six months' time, will be what we count as a conversion. Um and yeah, is that we Anglican or I think that's good.

SPEAKER_04: 26:59

I think I mean for us, we've just I mean I think we did this in 2017. We just started a Google Doc. Okay. We just wrote down the name of every person who became Christian, and and so if we've got 2017 and then the names of the people who became Christian that year, and then 2018, and it's been like that. And then we've occasionally gone back and um you know how you can on uh on a Word document or whatever, you can uh shade the colour behind we've shaded the colour red, green, or orange, depending on whether or not we know they're still walking with Christ. You know, and it might be that they've left our church but they've joined another church, but and we know that they're still walking with Christ. And so we can actually see okay. So I mean we I think we're doing something quite similar to what you're doing. Yeah, so good. We want to recognise that there is gonna be a four soils thing going on, and and and it's not that everyone who makes a profession, but but we really want to see people both start and stick.

SPEAKER_05: 28:00

Yeah, yeah, we want to we want to chart uh recommitments, yeah. Like that's something something not to be scoffed at. It's like beautiful to see we had some couple uh in their in their 50s share at church, you know, we we we just disappeared from church a decade ago and and we're just back now.

SPEAKER_04: 28:14

And um that's awesome. Yeah. To be not just for that to happen, but for you to profile that yeah platform is is exciting. In terms of because that actually put I mean, this question of how do I encourage members of my church to be on the front foot evangelistically, to be thinking, oh I I should talk to somebody else about that coming back.

SPEAKER_05: 28:38

Oh, I was just gonna say recommitments, uh professions of faith, and then people who are still following Jesus six months later, that that last one is what we'll take the five percent from. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:47

Yeah, I was just gonna say, just speaking to the fact that uh whether it's a first-time commitment or a recommitment, the story to tell is one of gospel transformation. And I think that's again, as I just think about like every Sunday, we have this wonderful opportunity to highlight the work of the gospel in people's lives that is real. And so I I don't want our church to get caught up on is that part of the five percent or not part of the five percent? I just want to rejoice and say that's a staff discussion. Yeah, that's a staff discussion. Um, but as a as a church-wide celebration, let's just rejoice that God is at work seeing people converted or reconverted to Him and uh and is in the the process of changing their life.

SPEAKER_02: 29:26

I share in that view as well because I I believe that the 5% can be um arbitrarily counted, and then you can simply say and be proud of that about that number, but there's more is more of a story to tell. Uh for example, there's a person uh who's been part of our follow-up course after the Discover course who's now coming at a real crossroads as to whether Jesus really is her true Lord and Savior, or whether you know there's been other commitments like family and and uh her cultural background who that actually elevates uh above Jesus. And I think because of her wrestle with this, I I think it's it's uh it's much more clearer, I think, for us to know that gospel transformation is happening and that that's the thing to be rejoiced about.

SPEAKER_04: 30:04

Ben, I I didn't get to hear how you were thinking about the counting. I asked Brett, but didn't ask you.

SPEAKER_01: 30:08

Yeah, I mean, similar to to what Brett's thinking, I we keep uh uh a track of the people and the names of people who have made first time commitments and recommitments. Um uh the the the many of them are youth. Uh uh there's a been an increasing number of them who are adults and young adults this year, which has been an encouragement to. Us um but keeping a track of them and then as a staff just reviewing praying for them. I like your colour system. I don't know, maybe we'll go for something like that and help us along the road. Yeah, to follow up. But but we run after discover, we run the uh more to discover, uh, which is you know it's the goal is establishing new Christians in the faith, and so we see that the the commitment is really just the start of the journey. And so it's almost like you want to do your five percent based on two years ago. Like what was it, where were we at two years ago, and are they still following Christ today? So it's it's hard to do it based on this year's professions of faith.

SPEAKER_04: 31:06

But I suppose just in in trust in God that people have made when you do the colour thing on the Google document, you think, oh, actually, well, really it was only four percent last year. Yeah, I thought it was a review. But really, it was only four when I've when I've kind of had to score a few off, do you know?

SPEAKER_01: 31:23

Yeah, which is why I feel like the five percent, it's great to have, but I don't want to be mastered by the five percent. And I want it to be a goal that we're working towards. And I when I presented it to Parish Council, they were saying, Why only five percent? And that and that's the reaction that we often um we often receive from people who have got a heart for the gospel. Um you said, but if we just get five percent, we of course we want more than that, but that's always the response. And so what it what I'm hoping that the five percent does for us at Narrowbean is it just drives mission in people's hearts and evangelism. So they're not thinking, oh, my friend can be one of the five percent. They're thinking my friend can move from death to life in Christ.

SPEAKER_04: 32:00

I'm actually hoping that it will change the conversation, do you know? And I and I think it's already changed the conversation in terms of what do we value. I mean, sorry, we know that what we value is seeing people saved and growing Christ. But I think as ministers, it's actually become what we value is how big is my church. Do you know? Whereas if we really value seeing people saved, you know, and how can I help you and how can you help me see more people saved, then that's actually the the key metric that that will do what the Gospel Coalition in Australia are asking us to do, which does to double the number of real Christians in Australia in 20 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:41

I was just gonna tell a story that at the start of start of this year, uh, we had a staff member leave very suddenly and he was overseeing the mission side of things at our church. And so I felt resigned at this start of this year to think, oh, nothing's gonna happen in that space. And I was just super encouraged now, reflecting back and preparing to come on uh today to see the way that uh even without a particular focus in the first half of the year, God still was bringing people from death to life in Christ. Uh, we had one lady who's been involved in uh pre uh preparing Auslan Alpha, uh so for the deaf community, and she said, Can we run it as a soft launch here at Narrabeen? And I said, Great, let's do that. People became Christians, they've followed that up with another course, another 10 people. Uh, they're now running it at St. John's down at Mona Vale. Uh, we ran Youth Alpha at the start of the year where people gave their lives to Christ. Uh, and it it just generated that reminder that mission is not an arm of what we do as a church. This is the culture that we want to um create and um um cultivate in our church is one of mission. Uh so it was just a really good reminder for me. You you take the person out. Does mission still drive through the culture of your church? And that's what we've been encouraged by this year.

SPEAKER_04: 33:59

Praise God for that.

SPEAKER_01: 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 34:01

Brett, do you want to leave us in prayer about churches everywhere and seeing people saved?

SPEAKER_05: 34:06

Yeah, love to. Uh Lord and Father, uh, you long for people to be welcomed home, and we long to see that as well. Tribes and nations standing around the throne, uh lifting their voices in praise to you. We are uh driven by the longing to see you glorified for uh you have fearfully and wonderfully created us and sustain us. And so, Lord, in the finite time that you give us, uh finite hours in our day, finite energy in the tank, we praise that we would use it wisely and courageously. We pray that uh we would use it discerningly uh to seek and save the lost and see them uh shored up in their faith until they reach the shores of eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_04: 34:50

Hey, my guests today on the Pastor's Heart, Brett Middleton and Ben Molyneux and Dan Ow. Uh, look, I just want to suggest that uh if you've listened to this episode today, that this could be an episode to watch with your staff team, or perhaps even to get some of your key leaders at church to watch to help raise the evangelistic temperature and raise your church's goals on what would what could we do to see this goal practically of 5% cut against average service attendance saved each year? My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart, and we'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.