Church music in a culture obsessed with self expression - with Alanna Glover

What does healthy, joyful, word-shaped congregational singing look like in a culture obsessed with self-expression?

We are shaped more than we realise by the culture around us. And today one of the most powerful cultural forces pressing on our churches is expressive individualism — the idea that the authentic self must be expressed and affirmed.

But what happens when this cultural air we breathe seeps into our church music? When sincerity becomes more important than truth, when the band is excellent yet the congregation is silent, and when singing shifts from “we proclaim Christ together” to “I express what I feel”?

If we do not address this, we risk disengaged congregations, weakened church identity and a missed opportunity for deep spiritual formation that comes as we sing God’s word to one another.

Alanna Glover — longtime church music leader, former member of Garage Hymnal, ten years with Emu Music, songwriter, trainer and theologian — has just completed significant research on expressive individualism and congregational singing in evangelical churches.

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Chapters

• 1:04 Naming The Problem
• 1:15 Expressive Individualism Hits The Church
• 1:54 Meet Alanna Glover And Her Thesis
• 2:09 Disengaged Congregations Despite Good Music
• 3:02 Bible Framework For Singing: The Triangle
• 6:26 Overemphasis On One Arrow
• 7:53 Defining Expressive Individualism
• 9:15 What We Sing: I vs We Language
• 14:03 How We Sing: Preference And Service
• 18:18 Why We Sing: Praise Over Self-Satisfaction
• 19:21 Can Anything Good Come Of It
• 22:57 Threats To Trust And Institutions
• 25:52 Pentecostal Alignments And Tarrying
• 28:57 Two Practical Takeaways For Leaders
• 30:21 Closing And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:36

A rethink on expressive individualism and church music in Alana Glover. Here's where the city is the Pastor's Heart. It's Dominic Steele. What is the problem and what is the way forward? Expressive individualism is unavoidably impacting our members and our churches. There's an impact on churches and actually on seeing. If churches do not address this impact, it can lead to disengaged congregational participation, an over-emphasis on emotional sincerity, a weakening of the church's communal identity, and a missed opportunity for the valuable spiritual formation that comes from us singing together. They are the words from the conclusion of Alana Glover's new thesis on, well, expressive individualism and church music. She's with us. She's worked for years in music ministry for the last decade with EMU Music and has written a significant thesis on this impact of expressive individualism on congregational singing in evangelical churches. Alana, thanks for coming in. I want to start with your pastor's heart, because uh you have thought about our congregations and evangelical congregations, and the band was good and they were well prepared and they're competent and they prayed, and yet church started and the congregation weren't engaged.

SPEAKER_01: 1:59

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen this uh a lot over my years of song leading.

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

Um you got there at 8 a.m. and it's 9:30 now.

SPEAKER_01: 2:07

Yes, isn't it so disheartening to spend all this time um making the music great and then just to see the congregation totally disengaged uh with that activity? Um, what a missed opportunity. So I really wanted to look into what was influencing the way that our congregation sings.

SPEAKER_00: 2:26

And is it me, is it us the band, or is it something wider?

SPEAKER_01: 2:29

Yeah, and in some cases it is the band, but I think it's so much deeper than that. Um, and I wanted to see what is it that our secular worldview is telling us about how we should be when we're in church, um, and what is it that the Bible tells us we should be valuing and doing uh as we sing together. So I went in, I actually had never even heard of expressive individualism when I started uh this research, uh, but I knew that there was something happening there that I could see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:00

Um now you're actually saying there's been a shift. I mean, a shift from, if you like, 80s, 90s Christianity and evangelicalism to 2020 um Christianity and evangelicalism. Um, what do you diagnose the shift as?

SPEAKER_01: 3:17

Well, that is the timeline that we've seen expressive individualism rise um as the worldview that we're kind of living and breathing these days. And it's a real move away from collectivism, so you know, the that we do things because that's what our community does, and we do things because that's what our family do. And that may have been people's attitude to church uh back in the day. They come because that's what we do, that's what my family does. I sing because that's what we do. But expressive individualism teaches us uh not to go with the flow, not to do things because everyone else is doing it, but to look inside ourselves, see what we find there, and stick to that and live that out. And that means that a lot of people are less likely to just go with the flow and just sing because that's what we do.

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

Yeah. Let's um let's go uh, if you like, to before and after, and uh we'll we'll go to the Bible and uh we'll put up a slide from your thesis and just get get you to speak to this slide from Colossians 3 16, 17.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

Yeah. Well, there are lots of uh great things in the Bible that talk about singing, but Colossians 3.16 is one of your favorites. Definitely me and so many other people involved in music ministry. Um, and it shows us that there's kind of three things happening as we sing, and it's helpful to plot this against arrows to show kind of where things are coming from. So let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. We see that God gives us the word of Christ, so that should be the content of our songs, and then we teach and admonish one another in song. So there's this horizontal aspect to this ministry. We are singing to one another. We don't often think of that. We often think of it as singing just between us and God, but it is a horizontal ministry of teaching and admonishing. And then all of that is happening, singing with gratitude in your hearts to God. That's all giving praise and thanksgiving to God as a community.

SPEAKER_00: 5:19

Yeah. Now, if you were to roll in Ephesians 5 and or 1 Corinthians 14, what things would you add? How would you tweak that framework?

SPEAKER_01: 5:27

Yes, the things like instead of uh the emphasis being on the word of Christ um being given to us, it's uh the spirit being given to us.

SPEAKER_00: 5:35

But you'd still have, if you like, that downward thing from God to us.

SPEAKER_01: 5:38

Yes, that's right. Um, in all those passages, you can see this kind of tri triangle thing happening that shows us we're being given something from God, then we are doing something together on a horizontal level, and all of that is for the glory of God as He cultivates Thanksgiving in our hearts.

SPEAKER_00: 5:58

And then one of the things I noticed as I was reading through your thesis is that you're actually saying that essentially most of the problems in church music have come from, if you like, an over-emphasis on one of the arms of those triangles. Perhaps you could just give me, if you like, the the uh the character classic mistakes that we make. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:19

Um, and you can kind of see some of these mistakes even physically. So uh for a church that might emphasize the horizontal aspect, they will say, you cannot close your eyes while you sing because we are looking at one another as we sing. We are emphasizing this horizontal thing. Um, and so the singing becomes not so much about giving praise and thanksgiving to God, but about just admonishing one another.

SPEAKER_00: 6:43

Only teaching and admonishing you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:45

Yeah. Um, and then the flip side of that, you know, those those churches where you see and everyone, it's just a sea of eyes closed because it's all about you and God. It's all about that, maybe downward trajectory, but mostly upward trajectory. It's this is what I'm giving to you, God. This is the praise that I'm giving to you. Kind of doesn't matter who's standing around me as I do that. Uh, and that shows uh overemphasis on just that upward trajectory arrow instead of seeing all of those things working together.

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

Right. Okay. Now, all right. Rise of expressive individualism. Yeah. And uh, I mean, well, what is expressive individualism?

SPEAKER_01: 7:24

Yeah. So it's the worldview uh that makes up a lot of our Western secular society today. It's the idea that we look inward to find out what is true rather than looking at an exterior authority or source of truth. You look inward, you find what's there, and you cultivate that and hold on to that, and then you make decisions in your life that will help you bet best express that to the world around you. So that leads to consumer culture, that leads to people changing jobs every two years, that leads to people changing church every two years based on how they feel inside and what is going to best represent their truth.

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

Changing church every two years, too.

SPEAKER_01: 8:09

I don't know if that's the statistic, but you know, even the concept of church shopping.

SPEAKER_00: 8:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:15

That I will, this one doesn't suit me anymore. I'm gonna go to this one, or I'm going to watch a lot online, depending on how I'm feeling. Uh, there's less of a commitment maybe to a church community, particularly the idea of being committed to a local church community. Now we shop around and we find out what best suits us. Suits my brand. That's right. Yeah, my brand. Hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 8:40

Hmm. Um okay, so we got another triangle we'll put up, and you I'll just get you to unpack this. Um, how has expressive individualism changed? Uh, well, what we sing, how we sing, and why we sing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:57

So this is a response slowly, I think. Yeah, this is a response to that same triangle before. And actually, those line those words along the lines are the biblical um phrases that I've pulled out of those passages. So, what does God give Christians to sing about? Jesus, his word, and his spirit. What do Christians do as they're singing? So, how do they sing to each other, teach, admonish, and serve one another? And why do they sing? They sing in prayer, praise, and thanksgiving. And expressive individualism is distorting each one of those.

SPEAKER_00: 9:33

So, talk to me about how expressive individualism uh changes what we sing.

SPEAKER_01: 9:41

Yeah. So if expressive individualism tells you that truth comes from within instead of from an external source, there's an immediate clash there, isn't there? If the Bible tells us that truth comes from Jesus, his word, and his spirit comes from God, um, then those are directly in contrast with one another. Instead, expressive individualism tells you the source of truth is found within you, and that should be the thing that you're singing about. And if there's anything intention there, um follow what your heart is telling you, what you find inside.

SPEAKER_00: 10:15

Okay, let's make it concrete. Um uh where are some examples of how um expressive individualism has impacted song words in songs that I might have heard of?

SPEAKER_01: 10:30

Ooh, songs you might have heard of.

SPEAKER_00: 10:31

Christian songs that I might have heard of.

SPEAKER_01: 10:33

Well, there's a trend that a lot of songs these days are uh using a lot more eye language instead of we language. So they're much more likely to be a personal experience rather than a corporate experience.

SPEAKER_00: 10:46

So I mean I can see a psalm where David speaks personally. Of course. Yeah. And so there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to say that I shouldn't have any eye songs. No, no. But you're saying if they're all eye songs, then that's a problem.

SPEAKER_01: 11:00

Then the natural thing that will occur, even if there's nothing wrong with those eye songs, but a lot of the time there is, um, even if there's nothing wrong with them, that's how you end up with that overemphasis of it not being about the horizontal ministry anymore. It becomes if everything is eye language, then you are encouraging people just to look at the downward and upward arrow and ignore the vertical. So we want to include both eye language and we language so that we're representing the full triangle. Yeah. Um, what are other things that are trends? Yeah. Um much more expression of emotion uh in the lyrics rather than a reflection on the concrete truths that we find in the Bible. So it may mention a truth and then spend the rest of the song talking about how I feel about that. And again, there's nothing wrong with that because we see that in the Psalms, uh, that personal expression and emotion are good things. But if that's what's making up the primary diet of the content of your songs, then you're really not allowing it to be an effective word ministry. You're making it an em an emotional experience or trying to manufacture an emotional experience for your congregation.

SPEAKER_00: 12:48

Okay. And and yet, I mean, I can see songs that we're singing in good churches moving in that direction. And you're saying we go a little bit that way, and that's okay, or there's a big problem going that direction at all, or what's your prescription?

SPEAKER_01: 13:10

I just think there are too many really great songs out there for us to be settling for songs that are simply not wrong. Does that make sense? Um, there are a lot of songs that you can look at and you can say, that's fine. I can't see that there's anything, you know, theologically incorrect about what's said there, but it's there's just not enough there. There's not enough great, rich biblical content there to be training our congregations to live out lives of of that are shaped by the gospel. Um so it's just not enough that it's not wrong.

unknown: 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:47

Okay. Let's go to the next one, how we sing. Um you've said the Bible says we should be teaching, admonishing, and serving one another, and yet expressive individualism tells people that their performance to the community around them is to benefit them.

SPEAKER_01: 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

Me, not I'm serving you.

SPEAKER_01: 14:08

Yeah. It's the attitude that uh I sing so that I can have an experience that is rewarding to me or enriching to me. It is not about serving my brothers and sisters around me. So I really struggle when people come up to me at the end of leading a service and they'll say, I don't like that song. And when I unpack that with them, it's not I disagree with any of the truths in that song. It's I don't really like the way that melody goes, or I don't really like the way that that poetry is phrased. That doesn't do it for me. Um, and that shows me that the emphasis there is on what that person is getting out of it for themselves rather than how is this song benefiting my brothers and sisters around me. So I like to think of this uh idea of preference and deference, that sometimes we get our preference when we sing, but a lot of the time we are deferring to the preferences of those around us for the sake of building up the body. So I am laying down my musical preferences so that I can sing for the joy and the benefit and the building up of those around me.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

I don't name a name, but give us an example give us a concrete example of that congregation, that that that conversation you just had.

SPEAKER_01: 15:25

I've seen somebody complaining about a song. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:28

Yeah. What's the what's the feel? How how does that play out? And how do you what do you then say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:34

I mean, you have to have thick skin to be in music ministry because music is so emotional and subjective, and there are so many different styles. People feel like this ministry, maybe more than any other, they can kind of assert a preference and have that met. Um, but I mean, those conversations are just as I said, someone saying, Oh, that song, I don't like it. This is a bit of a whingy tone. Do we have to keep doing it? And look, there's merit to keeping our song lists fresh and listening to feedback from the congregation. If everyone is hating it, then it's not benefiting anyone. Um, and I am guessing.

SPEAKER_00: 16:14

When I worked in radio, yeah. Um, I was working at a music radio station. I'd go to a party, I'd say I work at this radio station, and I discovered everyone is a program director at heart.

SPEAKER_01: 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

The rest of the night I would be kind of defending the playlist of the radio station.

SPEAKER_01: 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:30

You know, and I I do feel like in church everyone's a program director at heart.

SPEAKER_01: 16:35

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, but I I feel it myself. I'm guilty of looking at the songs or choosing the songs for Sunday and thinking, I really don't like that one. I don't want to sing it. Um, and every time I've gone in with that attitude, kind of, you know, mentally kicking and screaming, I don't want to leave this song. Uh almost every time I have someone come up to me at the end of the service and say, Thank you for that song.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:02

That song was exactly what I needed as I walked through this experience of grief in my life or this experience of whatever it is in my life. And it spoke to me in this way. And I always feel so convicted that I'm not there to sing for me. I'm there to sing for my brothers and sisters. And also, if I go in prayer for prayerfully saying, God, I don't really like this song, I don't really like the way it goes. Um, can you use it to minister to my heart? Um, that that is what happens. I am then able to find joy in singing the truth, even if it's not to the melody that is my preference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:39

And then this third one, um, the upward arrow, yeah. That part of the goal, part of what's going on is prayer, praise, and thanksgiving to God.

SPEAKER_01: 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:47

And yet expressive individualism tells people that their goal should be self-satisfaction, not the glorification of the Almighty God.

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

Yeah. People will come out of a church service and say, Oh, the singing didn't feel great today. And what do they mean by that? I think a lot of the time they mean I didn't feel like I was really uh connecting with my emotions, that I was really um, you know, feeling it. Uh, when actually just the declaration of God's greatness, praising him and giving him the worth that he is due, um, that is valuable in and of itself. That is part of the goal. Or singing loudly so that your brothers and sisters around you are encouraged. That is the goal. Um, but people don't see that as the goal, they see personal satisfaction as the goal. And so they walk away thinking, oh, that wasn't great. When actually they were accomplishing a lot of great things if they would just participate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:46

Now I want to push into this idea of um uh there's a lot of literature on expressive individualism, and actually a lot of it is now Christian literature critiquing expressive individualism and saying everything about expressive individualism is negative, and yet you you're saying that there actually are some helpful things. Let me push into that.

SPEAKER_01: 19:14

Yeah, yeah. Um, and there I really noticed this because I was writing an academic paper and you were supposed to show both sides of the argument. Uh, it was very easy for me to find a lot of evangelical writers talking about this worldview as a threat to the church. This is what is bad about society around us that is causing people to walk away and deconstruct their faith and all of that. It was very hard to find a defense of expressive individualism. And that's because uh the secular world around us isn't, they're not walking around their day-to-day lives going, isn't it great that I'm an expressive individual?

SPEAKER_00: 19:53

And people will be saying the only person I can find that has spoken in defense of expressive individualism is a lala blubber.

SPEAKER_01: 20:00

I'm not quite defending the whole thing, but I just thought um, being a person that is of that generation where I am living and breathing that world of expressive individualism.

SPEAKER_00: 20:13

And this was actually what I found so helpful about reading you because I realized everyone else serious that I'd read um expressive individualism was 20 or more years older than you. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I'm very interested. I was very interested in reading what you had to say, and I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:35

Um, there just seemed to be a little bit of a disconnect between what I was reading. Um, you you can't avoid it if you've grown up in it, you are an expressive individual, um, and it is totally incompatible with Christianity. Well, how do I reconcile those two things as a person who is living and breathing in that world, but is a committed Christian? Um there must be more nuance there. And I and there are a lot of values that are problematic about it, absolutely. Uh, but I think there are a couple of values ingrained in it that are maybe helpful for us becoming committed, sincere Christians, particularly the value of um authenticity and of living out of a deep conviction. So that is a real fight against nominalism. We don't just do things because we are told to. No, we're deeply suspicious of being told to do anything. Um, but once we are convinced of something, are convinced that something is worthwhile, uh, then we are much more likely to live that out in a committed way. So I think it means that when people are singing really well in your congregation that are my age and younger, it's based off a real deep conviction of the faith that they profess, um, which I think is actually encouraging.

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

So we might find the non-Christian who's coming to church or the just the the person who's kind of working it out, yeah, choosing not to sing because they aren't affirming this. But when they actually come to Christ, we will now see them singing with gusto. Yes. Because I'm authentically expressing what is my deep self.

SPEAKER_01: 22:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:30

That's interesting. I mean, and that actually That's interesting to reflect on how that might impact things like saying the creed. You know, that the person 20, 30 years ago might have been prepared to parrot the creed.

SPEAKER_01: 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:46

I'm just thinking aloud here. You know, um and yet not mean it. Yeah. Whereas now the expressive individual is not gonna I'm not gonna say that. I disagree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:57

And maybe they're they're slower to take it up because they want to spend time thinking it through. It is really hard to think through those deep truths of the creed in the moment as you're saying them at pace. Um, but once people have understood it, have been taught what it all means, um, and are on board with it, then they are much more likely to participate in a way that is genuine and heartfelt and committed.

SPEAKER_00: 23:21

Threats and opportunities of expressive individualism for the church.

SPEAKER_01: 23:25

Yeah. So um, look, there are a lot of threats, and we're seeing people walking away from the church because of it.

SPEAKER_00: 23:33

Um, it is And you and I both got friends in that situation. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:36

So many. It is a huge problem to be told um that truth does not come from an external source, that we should look within ourselves to find what is true and what is meaningful. Uh, because we know what lies within. It is fickle, it is sinful, it is broken, and it will keep changing its mind. Um so that is very problematic. Um the threats, uh, just a general um suspicion around anything that is kind of a big organization. So there will just be a general attitude of the church, that organization. I can't trust them. They are this big organization that have systems and and authorities and expressive individualism will say, be suspicious of that.

SPEAKER_00: 24:29

Um I mean, that's that's interesting. I don't think I had put together. I mean, a lot of people would say, I don't like the church.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:37

But I do like actually you. Yeah, yeah. I I do like what you're doing in your church at you down the road here, and the people seem nice and yeah, they don't like the church, big church. Do you know?

SPEAKER_01: 24:51

Yeah, yeah, the capital, the church, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:53

Yeah, and I don't think I'd put that, I mean, I'd I'd notice that phenomena, but I don't think I'd put that under the heading of part of the consequences of expressive individualism before.

SPEAKER_01: 25:04

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they trace its roots back to kind of the French Revolution and um, you know, overthrowing of authorities that have um uh you know squashed the the little guy.

SPEAKER_00: 25:17

Um now what about expressive individualism and Pentecostalism? I mean, we're in a city where Hillsong is a big player, yeah. Um uh Christian City CCC is a big player, yeah. And yet you've got uh evangelicalism is a big player, yeah. And um, and so up until now you've been describing the impact of um expressive individualism on evangelical churches.

SPEAKER_01: 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:42

Um what has the impact of expressive individualism been on the Pentecostal charismatic church?

SPEAKER_01: 25:48

Right. My thesis is was focused on evangelical churches.

SPEAKER_00: 25:52

This is not what you're just for me. As an aside, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:56

Um I mean, Pentecostal churches uh they have a lot of differences within themselves, you know, across the different Pentecostal churches on what they believe. Um so some are going to be um much more um problematic than others from an evangelical perspective. Um, so there's their theology is heightens the authority of self, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 26:22

So it kind of leans into expressive individualism.

SPEAKER_01: 26:25

Yeah. So I think there's a it's not that expressive individualism has caused Pentecostal or shaped Pentecostal theology to be what it is. We can trace that through history, and it's long before expressive individualism. Um, but it lends itself to uh working more closely, tying in more closely with the values of expressive individual.

SPEAKER_00: 26:46

So it will sit more comfortably in the expressive individualist worldview. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:50

So take, for instance, the idea of tarrying, um, this idea that um started in very early Pentecostal days in 1900s of um we sing in order to gain God's favor and in order to show God and demonstrate to God our devotion to him. And there are accounts of people singing for eight, 10, 12 hours straight, this tarrying before the Lord to gain his favor. It is all about the individual, which theologically sounds bizarre to me.

SPEAKER_00: 27:23

Right. Yeah, but keep going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:25

The individual is declaring their um their love of God, their allegiance to him, their faithfulness to him. Um, it is all about what is coming from the individual to God. And then a lot of other things flow out of that in their theology. If I am not encountering the blessings of God, I didn't tarry hard enough. I didn't show God enough fervor in my singing and my devotion to him. So you can see straight away that that lends itself really nicely to expressive individualism. If I my goal is to um feel satisfied in my self-expression, then that kind of tradition of tarrying, of declaring my devotion to God, that they sit hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00: 28:07

Yeah. Is that where that kind of like 24 hours of praise and worship comes from?

SPEAKER_01: 28:11

Do you think that uh I mean there may be other good reasons for that kind of activity, but I think that's the tradition that it comes from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:20

Right. Okay. And so um I'm an evangelical minister listening to what you've said, what are the practical takeaways that you I mean, we're gonna get you back to give this in detail. Yeah. But with just a couple of headline practical takeaways of what I might do. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 28:42

I mean, I have miles of content on this.

SPEAKER_00: 28:45

And we're gonna get you back.

SPEAKER_01: 28:46

But the the kind of two practical things that are most important are the songs that we choose and the way that we lead our singing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:58

Quick 30 seconds on each. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:00

Um, we want the content of our songs to um be an effective word ministry to sit alongside the preached word. We have the preached word and the sung word. Uh, and we want all of our songs to work together to meet the goals of Colossians 3:16. We want them all to be um full of the word of Christ. We want them all to enable the teaching and admonishing of one another, and we want them all to lead people to a heart place of thankfulness and gratitude to God as they praise him. So we want the diet of our songs to all be accomplishing that goal, and that has big implications for how what each individual song should say.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

Alana Glover, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us. Thank you. Alana Glover has uh been my guest. She has worked in music ministry for a long time, the last decade with Emi Music. She's written this significant thesis, and she told me just before she's about to go off and now do work on turning it into a book, so we can look forward to that. Thanks for joining us on The Pastor's Heart. My name's Dominic Steele. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.