.png)
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thepastorsheart">Facebook</a> then on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@ThePastorsHeart">YouTube</a> and on our <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> website and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Holistic help for Christian addicts - with Antony Dandato
How can we help those trapped in addiction? What about when we ourselves are the ones struggling?
Addiction is often an elephant in the room for pastors — whether it’s alcohol, substances, pornography, or sex addiction. And Antony’s research is asking: “How does the gospel of Jesus Christ bring real hope into the deep brokenness of addiction?”
Antony Dandato is Principal of Harare Theological College in Zimbabwe — a college that’s supported by our friends at Anglican Aid.
Antony did a ministry apprenticeship in Perth, Western Australia, before returning home to Zimbabwe, where he led student ministries and the national Ministry Apprenticeship Program. He’s now heading up Harare Theological College — and somehow, in the midst of all that, he’s also working on a PhD exploring addiction.
Antony brings observations from ministry in Zimbabwe, and how churches everywhere — including ours — can respond with both truth and compassion.
ChurchSuite Taster Days in Australia
Churchsuite is a Church Management Platform. Check us out at a Taster Day - Sydney October 21,22; Brisbane October 24; Canberra October 27; Melbourne October 28; Perth October 30.
The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Anglican Aid
Anglican Aid - To find out more about how to support Anglican Aid.
Advertise on The Pastor's Heart
To advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsor
How can a Christian addict flourish? It is the Pastor's Heart, and it's Dominic Steele, and today we are pushing into the area of ministry leaders and addictions. How can we help? And what about when we ourselves are addicted? Anthony Dandato, the principal of Harare Theological College in Zimbabwe, is with us. Anthony did a ministry apprenticeship in Perth, has led student ministries and the ministry apprenticeship program in Zimbabwe, and now heads up the Harare Theological College. And somehow, amongst all of that, he is working on a PhD on addiction. Addiction, it is often the elephant in the room for pastors, whether it's alcohol, substances, pornography, or sex or gambling. And Anthony's work is exploring how the gospel of Jesus Christ brings hope into significant brokenness. And look, just a note, our Pastor's Heart sponsor, Anglican Aid, supports Anthony's Theological College in Harari, and we have linked to the Anglican Aid page in our show notes in case you would like to support them. Anthony, I wonder if we could start with your Pastor's Heart for the Addict. And um, I mean, how did your concern to minister in this space, to think in this space, actually come about?
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Dominic, for having me. I think four stories. The first one was when I started, when I finished college, went into ministry about 15 years ago, uh, it suddenly came to my attention how many pastors struggled with addiction, especially upon addiction. And it was more of a coping mechanism in the stress and the struggles of ministry. And I don't think that they were not Christians. I think they were Christians. And because they were struggling and fighting it, it's evidence that they were they knew the right thing to do, but they were struggling. Uh the second thing that happened is I moved into ministry, uh, into a new church about five, four years ago, and I was appointed to lead a young adult's ministry. Many of them were kind of my age or a bit younger. And during that time, as I was trying to bring them together, some of the ladies were uncomfortable. And I was like, why? And they began to hint about the struggles among the male young adults. And didn't take me time as I was bringing them together that alcohol addiction was a reality. And in the process of that, one of them actually went before the Lord. And as I was trying to help them, I it unveiled my own weakness that I really didn't know where to start in helping them. And so I didn't ask him a question. Well, I knew that a restored relationship with God through Jesus Christ helps someone also be restored in their relationship one with another. It helps them flourish as a Christian, mentally, emotionally, relationally. But how could I help come alongside these young men and help them in their journey? Fast forward, the other two stories. I met a woman, got married as a Christian, but somehow she ended up in an abusive relationship. To try and cope with that, she just she just went to she started drinking just to get sleep. But before she realized that she needed more quantity to get sleep, more quantity to get sleep, until she was really hooked. She couldn't go to bed without without drinking. So she ended up addicted. And then the last story was of a Christian leader who just went out partying, started work, had money, went out with friends, and said that he actually just lagged alcohol. And so before he realized he was drinking more and more and more and more and more, it was kind of something in his body that just got hooked. And as I, all these four stories for me helped me to realize that there's a problem. But as a pastor started to ask the question, what does a leader need to do to help those who are who know the Lord, who love the Lord, um, but are struggling with an addiction? Is it that they're not Christians? I don't think so. I think there's a big dichotomy. Uh there's a big space. What's the place of faith and trusting in the Lord and being born again on one side? And what is the place of medical treatment, the psychology, uh, psychiatrists, and all that in coming along? And I saw that people tend to go to extremes in one side. People just say pray, and some of that is very, very important and very good. People need a restored relationship with God and they need to be helped. Um, that begins it with the Holy Spirit and with the gospel. People make progress. But on the other side, I think uh some were given medical treatment and all that. Uh one without the other, had a lot of shortfalls. And so that's what I'm digging. What's the interface of trusting in the Lord, knowing he's your savior, seeking to love God and serve him as a child of God who knows the gospel? And how do you come alongside? What's part part diet psychiatry, psychologist, and all that?
SPEAKER_00:It's a whole kind of disease, addiction inside of it. Exactly. Um, I mean let's just roleplay it. Just imagine that I'm coming to you and uh and I'm opening up about a struggle in with porn. You know, how how would you play the conversation out?
SPEAKER_01:Well when it comes to addiction, it is very important to understand the person and their circumstances first. So um an addict is very sensitive. They are very much alert, they want to protect their addiction, especially if they don't want to deal with it. They might even know that there are problems, they are struggling, but they don't want to acknowledge that this is the problem, whether it's alcohol or seg or or sexual addiction, that's that's what is affecting their marriage because they are watching porn and all this. So they will do everything to protect that. So you don't want the moment you try to address that first, they'll protect it. So ask the question Yeah, what's happening? Um, why do you think that is happening? What do you think is causing that? Uh, what do you need? What do you think you need? And and as you ask, let them let them begin opening up. And and as the relationship goes, they trust you and they begin to be more vulnerable and more vulnerable and begin to allow you into their space. And so trust is very important, relationship is very important, and so ask questions that brings you into their space and therefore can end up telling, you know what? I'm going through a divorce. Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_00:You're going to right, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, then that might be one of the things. Exactly. Or, you know what? I just have this hyper desire for women, and and I I just can't control it. And then you get, okay, you you they are coming now, they are vulnerable. And you you can then begin to so ask questions, hear what's happening in the environment. Is it a biological problem? Is it a social problem? Is it a psychological problem? Is it the environment in which they grew up? Were they abused? Because trauma is also another cause. Were they abused growing up? What are the causes? So just understand the environment by asking questions, show that you are listening. Do a lot of listening than talking with addicts.
SPEAKER_00:I I was you you generalized a moment ago in that the young adults in the church, the predominant problem was alcohol. Whereas amongst the clergy, in your experience, it was a bigger issue with porn. Um I I was a little surpr Oh, um if you want to just Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think uh look into history, uh power. I think as a in in the African context, in the Zimbabwean context, um the pastor holds very much a lot of influence on their congregations. So you have a lot of power, um and and people look up to you. Everyone wants to be associated with power. Um and so I think the devil, look into the Bible, how many, how many leaders, uh, even David himself, um it was sexual resistance for exactly, exactly. Solomon had thousand wives, then his heart ended up uh going astray. I think the devil power women and and and and and and that is is a very dangerous atmosphere within the church that the devil harnesses to pull people down. But I think also it's a real struggle um for uh when you are in marriage and in ministry, um sex is a big problem that we need to talk about. It's not only within the congregants, but also even within the leadership of churches, and I think it needs to be uh spoken into, addressed, and helped.
SPEAKER_00:Um what do the pastors do that makes it worse?
SPEAKER_01:Well I think um it would be interesting for to do a research on that, to say what what are the drivers? Um but in Africa I think you have pastors who are overworked, pastors who are bent out, uh, one pastor mostly for a church, sometimes two, three churches. Um, a lack of accountability, as you do that, there aren't many people around you to say, hey, what's happening with you? How can I come alongside? So who disciples the pastor, who pastors the pastor, kind of question. And and I think that creates a dangerous environment where you are kind of at the top there and no one no one really to hold you accountable. Um and when you burn out, you lose God. When you you find a coping mechanism, and a lot of people addiction has to do with coping in a broken world. Uh sin brings about distorted desires. And and when we deal with those distorted desires, rather than running to God who who restores us in a holistic way, spiritual, mental, relational, emotional, we run to quick fixes. So I don't think so. I think it's it's trying to cope with the pressures of ministry, with the pressures of life as pastors, maybe even their marriages. Believe you me, marriages are struggling. There's a high rate of divorce even in Zimbabwe. And and ever since COVID, that has risen. And we have seen a lot of pastors committing suicide, which means there are a lot of pressures working against pastors. And I think coping mechanism in that brokenness of the world and facing that, they don't have anyone sometimes to talk to. I appreciate Australia here. You have counselors for pastors and you have mentorship programs for pastors. That's very, very important. But in Africa, we don't have that. I looked for a mentor. Three of them said, What is that? I don't know what that is. Until I went to a white friend of mine in Zimbabwe who was like, Oh, yeah, I can do that. But most of my black pastor friends who are older than me, they were asking me, that has never been done to me. I don't know how to do that. So you realize that there's a vacuum, especially in the African context, where senior pastors, mentor young pastors, it's it's not it's not common. And so, what's the end result? You have these people committing suicide um at the end because no one has helped. But it begins with an addiction in different ways, in different ways, until they it leads to that.
SPEAKER_00:The story you told at the beginning of um uh the woman who was going through the marriage breakdown. And um, I'm just thinking about that and thinking that actually there was something going wrong in my life that prompted me into this unhelpful pattern of behavior. Do you want to speak to that? I mean, or is it are some of our issues coming out of trauma in the past? Yeah. Or the present. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um so in the brokenness of in the world because of sin, um, what I could see there was uh a lack of discipleship. I think that's one other real problem we have in our context in Zimbabwe. Because we have we are you have a pastor who is trying to shepherd a whole congregation by themselves, you can't be everywhere with everyone. And one of the my passion with ministry with the apprenticeship program is its emphasis on training so that you can have multiple leaders within the congregation and speaking the truth in love one to another, so that rather than depending on the pastor alone, which then overwhelves them, you there is congregational discipleship. I think what this woman lagged was other women who are also married coming alongside her and and saying, Hey, what's happening? How can we help? And also deep personal relationships where she could be vulnerable. Remember, uh scripture says older teach the older women to disciple the younger women. That that biblical principle. With our fast-paced culture and very much individualized, especially in the city, we are it's it's very easy for someone to struggle by themselves without anyone to talk to. And I think the church should really be intentional to fight for home group fellowship, encouraging people to meet, not just a small, it's in small groups, but even one-on-one, where people can grow deep, personal, vulnerable, and they can be vulnerable with each other so that you can really hear what's really happening. If she had that, then it could have helped, I think, to provide social capital, supportive systems for her to flourish and see how to deal with this. I think some of it was really police case. The end case scenario which got her to really get help is that the guy released the dogs on her. And she showed me the scars where the dogs attacked the dogs. Exactly. The man abused her to that level where he released dogs on her. And she showed me the scars. I could not believe it. And I was like, I was in tears as I was listening to her. And that's the level of abuse, but she had no one. She spoke to a pastor, and the pastor said, Let's pray, which is the other extreme. But I think it's a police case.
SPEAKER_00:He didn't cause the alarm.
SPEAKER_01:You didn't go to the police. You didn't go to the police, you didn't go to a psychiatrist. He just said, Let's pray, I'll pray for you. The Lord will save him, you'll come to salvation and all that. But it's God saves at his time. She's in a place where she needs more than just prayer. She needs, she needs the police to come in. You need to go to a sarcastic. Why is she remaining in that? She had traumatic experiences in childhood. For her, she has she has normalized this life. And for her, it's okay. Maybe I did something wrong. I need, I need to endure, I need to pray. She was telling me how she would fast for days. I think if there were intentional discipleship in that church, that could have really helped her. And people could have known what was happening in her. And if the pastor, when he had her body, he did not only say pray, but he had also gone into one under the ministry. Lawyers in the church would have said, please, this is a this is a case. I think as pastors, we need to harness also the various skills and understanding. Uh, let's know the Bible, let's know the gospel, let's preach the gospel. It saves, it transforms, but we need to harness the various skills that God enriches his body with. Lawyers, psychiatrists, medical people to come alongside all these means. Addiction is a complex thing. There's medical issues within the makeup of a person. There are social factors that come from the brokenness in terms of family. If it is young adults, we are realizing that even in the schools they have come from. You can also think the brokenness in Zimbabwe, unemployment, which is a socio-economic issue. People are struggling to cope with that. All these factors, you cannot deal with them alone as a pastor and be speaking to all that. You're not an expert in all that. You need you need to harness all the various gifts that God has brought in the church and be able, as you bring repentance, also harness those who can bring their expertise in various ways.
SPEAKER_00:How are you thinking about um addiction as a disease as well as a sin? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's a case-by-case scenario, uh, Dominic. Um the more you the more you do something, it it has mental effect where neurons develop. Like just like reading, your brain is a muscle. Uh the more you uh you read, the more you read, different networks develop in your brain that help you to to grow your capacity in terms of reading and doing things faster because of that repetition. It is the same thing that happens. So some people, because of the way they are made up, they drink a bottle, they're okay, they drink 20, they will they never get addicted. But for some, uh their body, their tolerance level is higher. So they can drink 20. Next, they need 40 to fill the same level, their body responds differently. And it is that makeup that as a pastor, you need to say, hey, how about you? Have you gone to the doctor? Because they are experts who understand how our bodies respond to things differently. You might take pain medication, you will never get addicted to them. Someone might take pain medication and suddenly they just want to keep taking it. Why do you respond that way and that one doesn't respond that way? They're made differently. So it is that recognition that we are all different and respond to things differently. One might lead another in a different path than another. And it's it is that diversity that God has brought as a good thing in his church, but that also creates interdependence where we need to help each other and walk alongside each other. That's why I'm a fan of training, but also even discipleship as the building block of that.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, what about the addict and lies? Um, yeah. Uh, I mean, because I mean, you uh you think as you invest in someone's life as a pastor, and if you feel like they're telling you the truth, then you feel prepared to keep investing on that. But if you feel like they're messing with you, yeah, then you think, am I wasting my time with you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Dominic. The There are various levels that an addict goes through. The contemplation, contemplation stage, which is the first stage where basically they are still comfortable with it, it means that they are not willing to change or to do anything about their addiction. Um, if you take that person, they have drunk themselves to stupor or they have uh taken a drug, they have overdosed, you take them to a rehab and you you get them treated, as long as they feel they're okay, they'll do it again. And even if afterwards you try to speak to them, this is where lies come in. They want to protect this thing because they still enjoy it, they still like it. And so they'll um they will lie to go to make sure that they will get back to it. However, the next stage, which is now they fall face down. So in Alcoholic Anonymous, they'll tell you that as long as someone does not feel like they need help, leave them. Let them let them do until they fall face down, which they call rock bottom, and they themselves say, I need help. And this is what got me to really relate it to the Christian faith. It's like someone who is at the bottom, at the worst of their life, and they're saying, God, I need you. They are willing to receive external help. That is the first step. Once that is, then they say, You can now come along them. The other prize before they get there, provide help, but not much. Uh, but when they fall face down and they're saying they are willing to receive external help, now come alongside them and begin providing help. Such a person, yes, they they will lie maybe when they relapse, but they are more to cover up the shape. Exactly. But they are more it's mainly because they are ashamed, they don't want to disappoint you. They have made progress, but then they relapse. Their lying is not because they want this thing. Because remember, they have been rigid rock bottom. So they want help. They know they need help. You have come alongside them, you are now helping them, they are making progress. Before they get rock bottom, they'll lie because they want they enjoy it, they are protecting it. But once they begin recovery, when they relapse, they will lie not because they want to protect it, but because they are ashamed. Oh, he helped me so much. And here's what I've done. And I have a young man who happened that a couple weeks ago, and he was lying, ah no, I'm I'm okay and all that. But you can tell when you know your person and you are working with them. And I was like, hey, you're minimizing it. Exactly. I was like, no, it's okay. If you have had a bottle, if you have just tell me and we can start again. They have been rejected many times. And I've seen it in our in our church. People say, This is what happened. No, these ones is their life, let them be. And so people have given up on people. And I think as pastors, like the sow of the seed, we throw the seed, which is the gospel. We never give up on people. We keep loving them, but we always try and find others to help in different ways. And I want to say the lies work out. Is it because they are comfortable, they want to protect it, or is it because they are ashamed they've let you down and they don't want you to be disappointed and and and therefore reject them. If always say, I'm here, it doesn't matter. Uh call me, let me know, be truthful with me, and don't be judgmental on them. If you say anything that shows like you are judging them, they close up and they'll never they will never open again. So you wouldn't want that to happen in gospel ministry.
SPEAKER_00:I got two thoughts rolling around in my head. One is the I mean the the therapeutic side says um it's a an addiction and somebody will relapse and the Bible side says um no one who continues in sin, uh one John. One John, how do you how do you help me there?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think the big question to ask is um the continuity, is it deliberate or is it a struggle? I think when when it is the one John, the continuing sin, there's no fighting. Someone is enjoying it, they're comfortable in it. You need to share the gospel, help them to come to repentance and to the serving knowledge of Christ. So, with such a person, I'll share the gospel with the hope that I'm helping them to see that they are enslaved, they they think they are controlling this, but this thing is controlling them, and they need the uh they need Christ to set them free. That's the first step they need. And then they'll be able to fight it with the help of God through his word and the Holy Spirit and the community of believers, all of them working together, Ephesians 4 11 to 16. But if if they are struggling, I want them to not give up on struggle, on, on fighting it. I want them to say, you know what? You are struggling with alcohol, you are struggling with porn. You know, someone also struggling with with lying. Some people just some people gossip. Exactly. They gossip a lot. And every time you try, tomorrow they gossip, they go, they they have this propensity to gossip. Some people are workaholics, they just can't stop.
SPEAKER_00:We've all got addictions to different sins.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I'm trying to say. You know what? Keep fighting it. We are all fighting different demons or feeding in the car or whatever. Exactly, something like that. And and you need to fight this. Anger. Yeah. Exactly. And God helps us. It's a journey, it's not it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. The Christian life is God working us to prune the old self, he's transforming us, and the these are struggles that we have. And so I'll take them to passages like um, make every effort, first Peter, make every second Peter, make every effort to add to goodness, kindness, to this. So there's a sense in which you work out your salvation because God is at work in you to will and to act according to his purpose. So God has already saved you, he has given his Holy Spirit, he has word, is working in you, but that gives you the confidence to work on it. You will fall, but you rise again, not because you are able, but God is at work in you. So I want them to have that gospel hope. And I'll say, Hey, you know what? One day this is going to end. When Jesus comes back, he'll deal with this. So we never give up. We keep fighting. And believe you me, some go five years and then they relapse. But the longer they go, the less the desire. And I pray that God will grow in them the right desires over the wrong desires. But whether God will do that and when he'll do that, we don't know. So we keep them keep fighting.
SPEAKER_00:Um the Reform Gospel speaks well into the culture of brokenness. Um and and that's really what we've been talking about here. The prosperity gospel has a completely different framework. Um help me under I mean, and in Africa, you've got a cr all sorts of crude versions of the prosperity gospel. Um and and my impression is that it's even more prevalent in Africa than it is here. That's true. Uh how does the prosperity gospel how is it unhelpful for the addict?
SPEAKER_01:Remember the fourth story that I shared with you about the young man who was a leader in his church and started to see that he kind of enjoyed uh drinking and went on and on and on with that. Early on when he was struggling, he went to his pastor and he shared with him, Pastor, I think I'm struggling with this. But also the pastor was kind of observing it. In fact, his team, music team guys were observing it because he would come to practice a bit tipsy, and they said, Hey, this seems to be a problem. Uh, how about you get help? So the pastor rightfully um came alongside him to help him. But that's where the I think the mistake we tend to do, uh, especially in those circles, or not I'll say in the in the pending in the extreme Pentecostal circles. He just said, pray, so pray together, which was right. Um, but then when he relapsed, he was like, You are not trusting God enough. You need to have more faith. You need to have this.
SPEAKER_00:So I mean, it sounds like I remember we had a woman join us in our church from a prosperity church. And she'd been told there that if you just have enough faith, there'll be no pain in childbirth. Do you know? And so that if you just have an It's your the problem.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you that's though that's that's what the pastor indirectly was saying. You it was very legalistic. So he ended up when I was talking to him, he doesn't go to church. He said, No. I I don't for him, it was so hurting he walked out. It's another thing to ask, was he ever saved? That's not the question we are asking. And I don't think that's what you're asking.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:You're asking how this can become damaging. And that's what happened. It became damaging. If the pastor had if he'd had a true gospel. Exactly. I think the true gospel is the first step, and then from there, harnessing the gifts that God gives, recognizing that all truth is God's truth.
SPEAKER_00:Anthony, just tell us what's going on with the church in Zimbabwe and your theological college in Harari. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Dominic, I was listening to your uh podcast uh the other week, I think a week or two back, uh, where you mentioned that Spajjan's College closed in London and Trinity Evangelica. I wasn't aware about that. Chicago. And and that got me thinking as someone closing, or moving to Canada. Yeah, yeah. And they're um seeing a drop in terms of students. Uh and I was thinking about my own context. Uh, moved in into Harari Theological College. We had 30 students two years ago, and we and we advertised. We just used online and uh fast forward, this is two years later, we have 70 students. You've doubled. We have doubled. Price God for that. Uh and and I'm I'm thanking God for that. Uh and and I think we are putting a bit of some brakes on on that advertising because you can't keep up with the enrollment. We don't have the space. We don't have the space. Our we have had to create foldable doors for our classes so that we can divide the classes. Um, we have small numbers per class at the moment. But in case we have big numbers, we have to open those doors and feed 20 students. And we have seen that that happen. And and and as I was thinking about that, yes, we have the same challenges as Spageon and Trinity because we need fees, and we fees will never run a college, so you need funding and all of that. But 2009-2010, when I was here doing student ministry, part of the reason I went back to Africa was I learned then that the Catholic Church had started to recruit more priests in Africa and for the churches in the West. Because they could not find more people getting into the priesthood around then. And so I could have stayed, I got a job here, but I could have stayed. But I said I want to go back, work in the student ministry, because the church in the West will need Southern Africa and South America to send pastors in the long haul, just like the Catholic Church was already experiencing. But how they were going to come here, I could see then that it was it was different. They were not going to come here as priests, they were going to or as pastors. But the West wanted professionals. There were people coming as doctors, as nurses, they were coming as engineers. And and part of my conviction, I said to my friends, I'm going back so that I can send a hundred more like me. Um because I feel I had come to understand the gospel and and so passionate about it. I wanted them to come with a missional mindset and to save the church here, hopefully becoming pastors.
SPEAKER_00:So I think And to Zimbabwe from Zimbabwe contributing to world mission.
SPEAKER_01:To the world mission, but differently.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Churches, people going as engineers, as doctors, but with a missional mindset, they're going to become pastors in the West. And believe you me, tell me the demographies in your churches. How many are truly Caucasian and how many are internationals? Um you see that what I'm talking about is real.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Thank you so much for coming and sharing with us.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Dominic. It's a joint.
SPEAKER_00:Anthony Dandato has been our guest on the Pastor's Heart today. And uh he is, of course, the principal of Harare Theological College in Zimbabwe. And look, we have linked to the Anglican Aid uh website link. Uh, they are raising funds for uh the Harare Theological College. They're also one of our Pastor's Heart sponsors, and you can go to that link and donate to support that work tax deductibly from within Australia. This is the Pastor's Heart. My name's Dominic Steele. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
