The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele

Canterbury chooses a managerial Archbishop for a fractured communion - with Laurent Mbanda, Lee Gatiss and Vaughan Roberts

• Laurent Mbanda, Lee Gatiss & Vaughan Roberts • Season 7 • Episode 40

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The Church of England has confirmed that the Bishop of London, Dame Sarah Mullally, will take on the role of Archbishop of Canterbury — but instead of celebration, the global response has been marked by shock, disappointment, and unprecedented criticism.

Once, the Archbishop of Canterbury was recognised as the spiritual leader of the worldwide Anglican Communion — the “first among equals” for Anglicans everywhere. But that authority has been dramatically eroded in recent years, especially after the GAFCON and Global South movements declared in 2023 that they no longer recognised Canterbury’s leadership, citing the Church of England’s decision to bless same-sex relationships as a betrayal of biblical truth.

As the GAFCON Kigali Commitment put it:

“Public statements by the Archbishop of Canterbury and other leaders of the Church of England in support of same-sex blessings are a betrayal of their ordination and consecration vows to banish error and to uphold and defend the truth taught in Scripture.”

With GAFCON and the Global South together representing as much as 85% of global Anglicans, Sarah Mullally will now lead a communion that is, in practical terms, far smaller and more fractured than it was at the start of Justin Welby’s tenure.

So what does this appointment mean for the future of Anglicanism? 

Joining us today are three leading voices (statements from their organisations are linked):

See also George Owers article in The Critic: The Lanyard Class Archbishop.

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SPEAKER_03:

A special edition of the Pastors Hub today with reaction from around the world to news of the new Archbishop in England. Lawrence Bunder, Lee Gaydis, and Vaughan Roberts are our guests. It is Dominic Steele here. There has been a strong and unprecedentedly negative reaction to the announcement of the new Archbishop of Canterbury. The Bishop of London, Sarah Millale, will take on that role. In the past, the Archbishop of Canterbury was seen as the leader of the world's Anglican Communion. But that role has been significantly diminished, particularly after GAFCON and the Global South declared in 2023 that they no longer recognize the Archbishop of Canterbury as the communion's first among equals. The GAFCON Cagali Conference declared, public statements by the Archbishop of Canterbury and other leaders of the Church of England in support of same-sex blessings are a betrayal of their ordination and consecration vows to banish error and to uphold and defend the truth taught in Scripture. We have no confidence that the Archbishop of Canterbury nor the other instruments of communion led by him are able to provide a godly way forward that will be acceptable to those who are committed to truthfulness, clarity, sufficiency, and the authority of Scripture. The overlapping and significant Global South group has made similar, if not stronger, comments. And given that CAFCON and Global South represent a large majority, up to 85% of global Anglicans, Sarah Millale will lead a communion that is far smaller in practical terms than it was at the start of Justin Welby's tenure, with many of the larger provinces distancing themselves from Canterbury. In a moment, we will speak to Archbishop Laurent Ambanda, Primate of Rwanda and chair of the GAFCON movement. But first, who is Sarah Malale? Well, on the line from the Church Society in the UK, Lee Gaitus. Lee, there are people in our part of the world who have never heard of her.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, of course. Well, um, Dame Sarah, to give her her uh correct title, is was actually the chief nursing officer uh in the NHS, our National Health Service, over here for many years, one of the youngest to hold that position, as I understand it, uh, before she was ordained. Um, and uh she did her ordination training at the South East Institute of Theological Education, um, which is not one of our major intellectual theological hubs, but uh is is a pathway into ordination. Um, and then she she was a curate in um South Diocese in London and a team rector there as well for six years before eventually being made a bishop in Crediton, down in Exeter in the southwest of England, uh, where she was for three years before becoming the Bishop of London and Dean of His Majesty's Chapels Royal, which is a sort of nice honorary title that uh often goes with that job. Um, she has been criticised as being part of the lanyard-wearing managerial class of the Church of England. As a former civil servant in the NHS, and then coming into the church, there have been comparisons with Paula Venels, um the former disgraced head of the post office uh over here who was also ordained. Um I don't know how true those things are, um, but that is uh one of the criticisms being made of her that she's a managerial sort of uh civil servant type bishop rather than a spiritual leader. She's not a theologian. She does have experience of ordinary ministry in the Church of England, but she has been a bishop uh since 2015.

SPEAKER_03:

That is Lee Gatis on the line there, and Lee is a director of the Church Society UK, and we'll come back to Lee in a moment. But first reaction, and first the leader of global anglicanism, the chair of GAFCON and the primate of Rwanda, Laurent Umbanda. Archbishop Lawrence, what is your reaction to this news? Not surprising, but disappointing.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you very much. Yes, it is disappointing, but uh we welcome Sarah, and uh we promise to pray for her.

SPEAKER_03:

What particularly about Sarah do you find troubling?

SPEAKER_00:

What I find troubling is that she has ignored many times support, and uh which tends to support the contract, uh which tends to be contrary to the biblical standard of historical Anglican teaching, and uh this seems to be uh um inconsistent and this seems to be compromising and this doesn't inspire trust.

SPEAKER_03:

In your statement, you've called on Bishop Sarah to repent. What should she repent of?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, uh first of all, um GAFCON, uh the heart of GAFCON uh matters not on the personality, but on the biblical principles. And the biblical principles, uh, GAFCON stands to uphold the authority of scripture and um the unchanging teaching of Jesus Christ. Now we know that uh uh from looking at Sarah's uh background, um I think she has had some compromises here and there, and I think she seems to uh um to not be extremely clear on the teaching of the scripture. In fact, I think her record seems to be uh continuing the way Canterbury has always done it. And therefore, uh I don't think that leadership will help the uh Anglican communion, but it rather continues to worsen the situation and to feed it even more further. Um so uh I'm not sure if we can bring the Anglican communion together at this point. And if it repents, and that repentance I'm talking about is coming back to the authority of scripture, is the willingness to take a stand, a stronger stand, on the teaching of traditional teaching of the scripture. And um otherwise anything else would uh would lead to mistrust.

SPEAKER_03:

There really has been no sign of a change in direction from Sarah Millale over the last few years, though. Uh in fact, to the contrary, she's been one of the main proponents of the living in love and faith, the move to revise the Church of England's teaching on sexuality.

SPEAKER_00:

That's why we continue to pray, but it's still room, you know. God can touch anybody's heart at any time. So uh when that happens, um we'll be watching and we'll be ready to to talk and see where things to go. Otherwise, we have made a clear decision in 2023. It is always a standard that we have always taken as a GAFCON from 208. Uh we started to um to restart the communion and we will continue and move forward.

SPEAKER_03:

There really are two issues. One is that she is unrepentant and leading away from theological orthodoxy and faithfulness to Jesus, but also a second issue, whether or not somebody from England can be leader of global Anglicans just by the default of them occupying the chair of St. Augustine in Canterbury.

SPEAKER_00:

I think someone from England can uh can be if it tends a strong orthodox and uh view of things, and if uh they are hoarding on the authority of the scripture and the traditional teaching on marriage and um uh and and and they are willing to uh to to not just take a middle ground and compromise. So what is needed is a strong leader who will pull the communion together. But as we see it today, that will not happen. Unless there is a change of heart, a change of mind, and that's the repentance that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03:

What do you think will be uh the response of the various GAFCON primates? No doubt you'll be invited to her installation. Will the GAFCON primates attend?

SPEAKER_00:

No, the GAFCON will not go, mainly because that is the decision we have made long time ago, until we see that uh change of heart, until we see that repentance.

SPEAKER_03:

So, what would be your message to the faithful evangelical pastor, the church member in the Church of England today?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, pray for the the church, and know that GovCon has open arms. For anybody who feels like uh they can't stand it anymore, GovCon is home. And uh so uh we welcome anybody who wants to join the GovCon and who wants to uphold the authority of scripture and who wants to hold the teaching of Jesus Christ on uh human sexuality and uh marriage.

SPEAKER_03:

What do you think is going to happen going forward?

SPEAKER_00:

Going forward, I think uh I think that she's not going to be able to pull the unity that she's talking about, and therefore GovCon will lead.

SPEAKER_03:

So, what would that look like?

SPEAKER_00:

What would that look like is that we will call upon those who are of the same belief and same stand to unite and to continue with the Anglican Communion, which I believe Kataburi has left, given where they have been in the past and where they continue to be. And her appointment is a strong, clear statement that uh they are not budging, they're not uh open to to um to really repairing the communion.

SPEAKER_03:

That is the primate of Rwanda and the chair of the GAFCON Movement, Laurent Mbanda, uh, speaking there on the appointment of Sarah Malaly to the position of Archbishop of Canterbury. And uh he says the decision of the Church of England to appoint Sarah Malley is a decision to keep on pursuing the revisionist trajectory of Justin Welby away from Orthodox biblical Christianity. Now, the Global South have also issued a statement saying that they had hoped that the next Archbishop of Canterbury would uphold the Orthodox faith. And given that Sarah Malale has played a leading role in the Church of England's departure from Anglican tradition and the clear teaching of Scripture in matters of marriage and sexuality, the Global South's position remains one of not recognizing the Archbishop of Canterbury as the first among equals leader of the Anglican Communion. Now, in a moment, we will talk to Vaughan Roberts, Rector of St. Ebbs in Oxford, and a member of the Alliance Council within the Church of England. But first to Lee Gatus of the Church Society. Lee has been listening to that discussion. And Lee, do you agree with Archbishop Mbanda?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, Archbishop Mbanda, along with Justin Bardi Arama, is um the de facto leader of the Anglican Communion at the moment, uh, rather than the Archbishop of Canterbury. And I have um nothing but respect for him and agree with everything he said. Um these are dark times for the Church of England. Uh Justin Welby, the previous Archbishop of Canterbury, led us as a church down very dark paths of safeguarding failures and theological revisionism, managerialism in the church. And I'm afraid that Dame Sarah will lead us in the same direction.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's come back to safeguarding in a moment, but let's talk first about theological revisionism. Uh Bishop Sarah Millale is the new leader of the Church of England, but critics say she doesn't actually believe the doctrine of the Church of England. Can can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, quite. In the um the service for the consecration of a bishop in the Church of England, it says, Do you believe the doctrine of the Christian faith as the Church of England has received it? And in your ministry, will you expound and teach it? And there are other questions along those lines. Will you faithfully minister as the Church of England has received this doctrine and sacraments? Will you teach the doctrine of Christ as the Church of England has received it? Will you refute error? And will you hand on entire the faith that is entrusted to you? And now for the third time in a row, we have appointed as Archbishop of Canterbury somebody who will not do those things, who cannot, in my mind, with integrity and good conscience, say yes by the help of God I will, to those questions in the consecration service. Because Dame Sarah has openly um advocated for the LLF, uh, LGBTQIA plus agenda within the church. She is pro-choice, as I understand her position on abortion. Um, and although she's against euthanasia and assisted dying, as we're calling it over here, um those things give me great pause uh and great cause for concern that she she doesn't believe and w won't teach the doctrine of the Church of England as we have received it. But she wants to change that doctrine. In fact, she's been one of the leading players in pretending that we're not changing the doctrine while actually doing so. You know, that Jedi mind trick. Uh, we're not changing doctrine, she's been telling us while they've been trying to um uh bring about one of the biggest changes in the church's doctrine for 500 years. Um, when I've met her in person to talk about these things, um I said to her that I thought what what the bishops were doing was illegal, it was against our canon law, it was against the teaching of the church. Would she publish the legal advice that the bishops had received? And I was assured, of course, yes, we will, of course, publish our legal advice showing how what we're doing is legal. I don't think we've had that legal advice published. So I have very little confidence that we will have a change of direction and a better way forward. I'm always optimistic and hopeful. Um I'm hopeful rather, rather than optimistic. But I really don't think that that is where she will lead us. She's a revisionist and liberal on those issues. Of course, you have to be, you have to be uh liberal these days in order to get ahead in that lanyard-wearing managerial class uh in in the English civil service and so on.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's turn now to the issues of safeguarding. And uh when you and I first spoke, um initially about an hour after the announcement of Sarah Millaly's name, you said at that point that information would be coming out about safeguarding failures on Sarah Millaly's watch, safeguarding failures uh during her time as the Bishop of London, and those issues would be difficult to deal with. And look, given that Archbishop Welby's resignation was linked to safeguarding failures, uh, it is astonishing that they have appointed somebody uh who also had safeguarding failures on their watch. Now, since our initial discussion, I've just watched a little segment from George Conger and uh Kevin Culsen uh on their Anglican Unscripted program, where they've detailed what they know about Sarah Millale's safeguarding failures, and their commentary is very strong. Um, they highlight one particularly tragic case, Father Alan Griffin, London clergyman, who died by suicide in 2020 while under investigation, and a coroner's report strongly criticizing the Diocese of London. Uh the report pointed to careless talk, miscommunication, confused roles and responsibilities and delay, and concluded that no one took responsibility for steering the direction of the process from start to finish. Now, those failures, those systemic failures, happened on Bishop Millaly's watch, and the diocese has apologized for what it described as a catalogue of safeguarding failures.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, Lee, with that context in mind, um how significant do you think safeguarding issues will be for Sarah Millalys uh there's a great deal of information out there on the Alan Griffin uh suicide and the way that uh he was handled by his diocese and by the Church of England. I have no special insight into that. I'm not involved in that case at all. Um, but that is only, I'm afraid, one of several safeguarding failures that people are saying have occurred on Sarah Malale's watch in London. So it's not just me saying this, um, I have no particular access to all of those allegations. They are online. Um you will find them on social media, um, people being very clear that they they are there is a catalogue of failings. So much so that people were saying beforehand that Sarah Malally couldn't possibly be one of the candidates for the Archbishop's chair, because it's well known by victims, survivors, uh, and others within the institution that there have been failings in the Diocese of London on safeguarding. So um I've got no particular comment on that because I I'm not uh um uh au fay and fully briefed on them all, but there are so many allegations out there and things being said out there that I am very surprised myself that after the failure of one archbishop on safeguarding, we get another archbishop another archbishop who um may well have s similar skeletons in the closet. My biggest issue is the failure of spiritual safeguarding um as well. You know, the failures on safeguarding to do with uh people's well-being, uh suicides, abuse, and so on are extremely serious and need to be handled well. But ultimately, there's an eternity in view as well, and without the gospel being clearly and boldly proclaimed in our nation, many people are going to end up in far worse place in hell. Um, and spiritual safeguarding needs to go on where people who are leading us astray in eternity are not being uh prohibited from ministry and silenced. Uh, and that's what we need. We need the true gospel to go out, and we need the false gospels that are all around us in the church and in the world to be refuted. And that spiritual safeguarding is not going to happen um under Sarah Malali's watch. And I I fear that the even the physical, mental, and emotional safeguarding that we need um may also suffer. I may be wrong, lessons may have been learned on the the latter, but let's see.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's just go to this issue of the lanyard class, Archbishop. And uh George Owers has written a fascinating article in thecritic.co.uk. And I thought I might just read two paragraphs of that article to you and uh ask you to respond. He says, It appears to be a great gift of providence that Justin Welby stepped down as Archbishop of Canterbury, just as the quiet revival gathered steam in the UK and the cultural moment was changing. New atheism is cringe, everyone's read Dominion by Tom Holland. Many can see that what's come after Christian hegemony is far worse. People are looking for something different. The time was ripe for a new Archbishop of Canterbury, well placed to exploit this new atmosphere, a theological heavyweight and spiritual big hitter who could speak more traditional, uncompromising language, tone down the Church of England's invariably progressive mood music, and challenge the church's creeping culture of bland managerialism. And then George Owers goes on to say, if I were to try to imagine a candidate for the new Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the furthest away from this, the worst and least suitable replacement, I'd pick somebody, a former state bureaucrat, who'd made an entire career out of some sort of bland HR department-inspired managerialism that is destroying the church, probably a senior civil servant in, say, the NHS. They'd be on the record as having every tick box, lazy, progressive political and theological opinion imaginable. They would have lived and worked in London for most of their life, be a thoroughgoing metropolitan, they'd have no record of any serious theological or scholarly works, and that they would be thoroughly intellectually mediocre. Whoops. I just described the person announced as the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Malale. Lee Gatus, can you comment?

SPEAKER_01:

Characteristically salty words from George there, um, and very well put. Um there is supposedly a quiet revival going on um in England. That's what we're being told by some reports, and from anecdotal evidence I've heard as well. Um I fear that this appointment of an Archbishop of Canterbury like Sarah Malale um will not aid that quiet revival. Um and it will possibly ensure that the Church of England misses out on any fruit from that revival. Because many people are looking for moral uh stability, uh traditional ethics and understanding of the universe, and they're looking for a relationship with Jesus as taught in the Bible. Sarah Malley is not going to particularly promote that. Uh we're going to have all sorts of other issues promoted and defended against. Um so the Church of England will miss out. The quiet revival, if God is doing that, will happen outside of much of the Church of England. Will she enable it to uh be fostered within those parts of the Church of England that are more traditional, conservative, evangelical, gospel promoting places? I hope so. She does have some form um in a pragmatic, mutual flourishing sort of approach to enabling the bishop the Bishop of Ebbsfleet's ministry to uh to flourish, for example, and that is a good thing. I hope that that will continue. But I mean the Bishop of Ebbsfleet is vastly overworked, as an official report um uh told us last week. And we need at least two bishops like that. And I've been saying for years that to be proportional and fair, we should have twelve bishops like the Bishop of Ebsfleet, who are traditional conservative evangelicals. Um that's our proportion on general synod, so why can't we have that number of bishops actually leading us? Um so that's what we would need for the real quiet revival to take off. Uh, more gospel believing, gospel preaching, bold evangelists in our positions of senior leadership. Um, if we don't have them, God will still do his work. It will happen on the ground in some Church of England churches and in many other churches. I I'm afraid some of that quiet revival is being harnessed by the Roman Catholic Church in England. Um, and you can also see it in some vibrant Pentecostal churches, too. I wish we had more of it in the Church of England, and uh we will get it in those parts that are conservative, evangelical, um, but not in the Sarah Malale type churches.

SPEAKER_03:

That is Lee Gatus from the Church Society UK. Let's go to Vaughan Roberts, the rector of St. Ebbs in Oxford, and a member of the Alliance, the major group representing the big coalition of people across the Church of England who are opposed to the revisionist Welby Malalee trajectory. Um Vaughan Roberts, where does this appointment of Sarah Malalie leave you in the Alliance?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it leaves us exactly where we were before. Um Bishop Sarah was one of the leaders of the of the direction of travel, um, which introduced what we know as LLF, Living in Life of Faith, and resulted in the same-sex blessings. So that that's the problem we're in. And um they felt, I think, that they could move in their minds a little way in allowing for the blessings of of same-sex unions and um and hold everyone together. And the reality is um it's not holding everyone together, everyone's upset. So liberals are feeling this is very frustrating. We've got a half-hearted little semi-blessing, but we don't have equal marriage, which is what we want. And those of us who are convinced that the Bible teaches that the place of sex is for the marriage of man and woman feel that de facto we've changed our doctrine and we can't move forward together in unity around a changed doctrine. And so um big in her intray um is to deal with this mess, and there's no easy way of dealing with it. And of course, what we want is repentance and uh to go back. Um, but if there's a determination to keep moving forward, we will need a settlement. So that's what we're looking for for her, a settlement which keeps in the integrity of our doctrine and um does not require us to walk in fellowship with those who've departed from the apostolic faith. So we are where we were before this appointment. It's interesting that that there seems to be a preparedness to um to shift on the apostolic faith um when it comes to marriage, but to be unshifting on church order and this idea that there needs to be one bishop for each geogeographic uh location, and and that somehow is absolutely immovable, but will shift on doctrine. And at the moment, uh she's the impression I I get is that she, like most of the bishops, would be very, very reluctant indeed to give up any ground on that. And so we're I think we're likely to face impasse. But I've always felt that the only way there's likely to be change is that if um if the alternative seems worse than giving up some kind of jurisdiction, and I'm confident that the alternative will be worse because the Church of England will just be ungovernable, it will break down. But that'll take a while to to play out and it will be big in her inbox.

SPEAKER_03:

Aaron Powell What she's saying makes a lot of sense. I'm only prepared to change if the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing. Uh speak to me about what the pain of not changing is going to look like in this first season of her term, if she won't change.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's it's gonna happen very quickly because we're told that um this autumn the bishops will need to decide where they're where they're going with this LLF project, which is hit the buffers. Um they've not been able to deliver what they promised a year ago, uh which was a trajectory towards same-sex marriage for clergy and so-called standalone distinct same-sex blessing services, and they haven't happened, and there's a lot of pressure for them to happen, and nor have they delivered on what they promised, which was some kind of provision for those of us who in conscience would need a distinct uh form of episcopal oversight. They haven't delivered on any of that. So what are they gonna do? And if they shift in any direction forward, if they they they try for same-sex marriage, which will be very hard for them to do because it's clearly uh illegal, um, it's gonna against go against doctrine. They'd need two-thirds majority to change that. If they change any of these things, or if they cease to exercise discipline and don't formally change it, but just say, well, we're not we're gonna turn a blind eye, then I'm confident that a very large grouping across the Church of England will take the kind of actions that churches like ours at St. Ebbs have already taken in relation to directing money only towards uh those who hold to the Orthodox faith, uh, requiring alternative episcopal oversight, and saying we're going to send our ordinance in a different direction and not through liberal diocesans. That that will happen. So there will be what the Alliance has already talked about as a a de facto parallel province that will accelerate, I'm I'm confident of it. And just a week ago, a significant little grouping of leaders of churches from across the new wine network, the renewed network that I'm part of, the HTB network, um, a small group of us agreed to do the same things. And um that I'm confident will roll out.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm just thinking about episcopal oversight and the position of the Bishop of Ebsfleet. Uh he, of course, responsible for pastoral oversight of complementarians within the Church of England, uh serving in dioceses led by revisionist bishops. Uh in the past, the Bishop of Ebbsfleet had a line manager in the Archbishop of Canterbury, who was male, but he is now in an even more difficult position as a complementarian. Um how do you see a way forward there?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, Bishop Rob's a very wise man and and and a man of great integrity, and and I know that'll be. A huge thing that he will need to engage with. And clearly that is a problem. If we we need male oversight, well, that'll need to be sorted. But there's a bigger problem. And the bigger problem is beyond the question of male and female is the sexuality thing, which is going to an issue of fundamental faith. And the bigger problem is you might have a male liberal bishop, and if they say, well, you can operate under a suffragan bishop who's orthodox, that doesn't work. So you might say, well, it doesn't work for Rob if he's under a female archbishop, but it doesn't work for anyone if they're what they're trying to offer, the most they're trying to offer, is a um, oh well, you can have an Orthodox bishop under the author authority of the diocesan who may be liberal, and that's a problem for all of us. So what Rob is facing now is a problem that we're all facing across the Church of England with the majority of the bishops pushing in a liberal direction. And that's why we're saying this won't work. It won't work for him now, but it won't work for all of us without what we're calling for is a triple O system. Orthodox, ordinary oversight. Now, ordinary is a jargon word that means distinct jurisdiction, so not some kind of orthodox oversight under a liberal bishop, but actually this kind of oversight that has jurisdiction. And that is the settlement that we're going to need. And without it, I'm afraid it it's it's going to be very, very difficult in the days ahead, and we will have to move in the parallel direction. Of course, what we're longing for is to keep doing the work of the gospel on the ground. And there's so much good stuff going on in the Church of England, and we wanted to continue. This is a massive distraction, but for the sake of what we long to be doing, which is reaching people with the good news of Jesus, we've got to keep pushing on.

SPEAKER_03:

That is Vaughan Roberts of St. Ebbs in Oxford and a member of the Alliance, uh uh a movement within the Church of England. Their website says we're a network of networks within the Church of England, committed to our Anglican heritage of faith, holding to the received teaching of the Church of England and part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Our guests on this special edition of the Pastor's Heart, Laurent Umbanda, Lee Gaidis, and Vaughn Roberts. And this special edition replaces our regular episode this week. And we will see you for the Pastor's Heart the following Tuesday afternoon. My name's Dominic Steele. Thanks for joining us.

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