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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thepastorsheart">Facebook</a> then on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@ThePastorsHeart">YouTube</a> and on our <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> website and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Trusting God when everything is awful - with Richmond Wandera
How do you understand God’s sovereignty when your dad is murdered, your family is in poverty, you are living in the most awful slum and your extended family won’t help.
Richmond Wandera's father murdered when he was just eight years old, leaving his family destitute in Uganda's Naguru slum. Initially he wanted revenge. But then he came to know Jesus Christ.
We talk theological reflections on suffering, as well as a challenge for Western comfort-seeking Christianity, and a clear critique of the Prosperity Gospel.
Richmond Wandera leads the Pastors Discipleship Network across East Africa, as well as pastoring at the church where he came to Christ and partnering with Compassion in Uganda.
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God is still sovereign when everything is awful. Richmond Wanderer of Ngaruru in Kampala, uganda, is our guest today. I first met Richmond in 2016 and here is a photo of us from back then, and he still looks the same and I look a lot older. He spoke then of the terrible murder of his father at age eight and how his mother and siblings were destitute in the Ngaruru slum, and the amazing sentence that he heard not long afterwards from a compassion field worker.
Speaker 1:Richmond, you have a sponsor. He came to Saving Faith at age 14. There were degrees in accounting, spiritual formation, discipleship and leadership, and he now pastors the church in Ngaruru in which he came to Christ and leads the enormous pastors discipleship network in East Africa. Richmond, thanks for coming in. I'm going to ask you about the sovereignty of God in all this in just a moment, but I want to start with the pastor's heart, and somebody said to me when you're talking to Richmond, you should ask him about the word revenge and just the journey he's been on, as he's thought through how to think about, how to react towards the killers of your father and the difference the gospel has made in that journey.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much. It's a joy to be here, and the topic that we're talking about today is very, very near and dear to me, as it should be to all of us. You asked the question about revenge. I have two stories. One is a story of my uncle, who ended up taking what belonged to my dad After my dad passed away. My mother had no job, and so she looked around for what's available that she can sell so that she can draw from that sale some money to keep us going. Well, my uncle was in financial trouble and he decided that he would cook up a lie and he said to my mom, whatever my dad had bought key items that my dad had used money borrowed from him to buy those things, and so he wanted them back, and that created a bit of a conflict, and a struggle, but my uncle prevailed.
Speaker 2:Conflict and a struggle, but my uncle prevailed, and my mother she. If there was a word stronger than hate, uh, that was the word I could use. Now she could bear him because just in the middle of darkness, when you think it couldn't get any worse, she hit the bottom rock with that. But a few years later she's now in the Lord. I was now in the Lord. My five siblings were all in church thriving at this compassion. Project is when my mom hears that he's got cancer and he was in hospital unattended. Most people had deemed him a very rude man and so they'd left him to die. And my mom says they're unthinkable to me and my siblings. My mom says let's go take care of him, because that's what Christ would have us do I mean that's an extraordinary work of the gospel in her heart.
Speaker 2:An extraordinary work because I said no for me personally. But as you interact with African families, you know when mum says to do something you do it.
Speaker 1:So you were kind of. How old? Were you 18 then?
Speaker 2:No, by this time I was old, I was about maybe 21 around this time. And so, and a long story short, my mom goes. We go with my mom and we're in hospital for several days taking care of this individual in and out. But here's the thing Two days before my uncle passed away, my mother's hand was in his hand and she was leading him to the lord. She was praying for him and I stood and watched this. I said I want to know what that is. I want to know what that is. The idea that the gospel is the power of God became very very evident before me.
Speaker 1:And by this time… Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and indeed by this time I'm an accountant, I was practicing accounting and very determined to go up the ladder in the accounting space, and it was there that my whole life changed in trajectory and I began to read obsessively the word of God. I wanted to know what this was, because it's not the kind of thing you read in a book somewhere and get. This is the gift of God. It's God touching a soul of a person and changing them radically. That much and so long.
Speaker 2:Story short person and changing them radically that much and so long, story short I moved ended up turning over from accounting and I'm now a pastor and into the ministry, and that's one of the stories.
Speaker 1:What about the revenge towards those people who killed your father?
Speaker 2:Yeah, growing up as a kid, I wanted to join the military, particularly for that reason, because I, my whole life was shattered after the killing of my dad. But at the age of 14, after I came to Christ, it wasn't like instant change in attitude and posture, but after some time hearing enough stories about forgiveness, I began to slowly release. And God by His grace. Enough stories about forgiveness, I began to slowly release. And God by His grace. I cannot explain, saying that it was either something I did or something someone else did, but there was a forgiveness, the kind of forgiveness that releases you to release others. I think that's what happened to me. And the time came when I slowly saw the darkness fade out of my life, the darkness of revenge.
Speaker 1:Now I want to push into. God works in all things for the good of those who love him. Or for me it was. I think it was a line in an Isaac Watts hymn of behind the frown of providence stands the smile of grace. And yeah, how do you process? I mean years in a slum. You must have had to theologically work through this of what was God doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, when you think about suffering, poverty, pain, there are different categories of thoughts that cross your mind and my mind, I'm sure. The first thought is suffering is from the devil. Pain only destroys Anything to do with depravity and death. There is no redemption in that, and for a long time in my life I thought look this suffering. Why did God allow it? He's so bad. He's not a good God. Anyone who says God is good didn't know what they're talking about. Even when I joined the church earlier on, there was this common statement god is good all the time and all the time god is good.
Speaker 2:and I was like you'd hear people say that, yeah, yeah yeah, until what happened to me comes close to your door, then that language will change. But that was my posture before. Now that I have become older and have had time to reflect, I actually see that there is a very common trend and path and pattern in the scriptures of the Lord, inviting and sometimes directing individuals to the desert place. Whether you look at Moses, whether you look at Christ himself, there is this move away. Come away with me to the place of preparation, and it's the place where metal is made ready for the maker's use. And looking at how strong I have become as a result of what I've gone through, I'm now at a place where you take me to the hottest and darkest place in South Sudan I'll be fine. You take me to the place in Somalia where everyone is afraid I'll be fine. You take me to the slums. I'm still working in the slums. I studied, I became an accountant, I got my master's, I got my PhD work, but I'm still in the slums.
Speaker 1:The church you're pastoring is the one that you were saved in in the slum area Exactly.
Speaker 2:And I'm still right there it's because there is a work that has been done. There's a redemption work by the grace and sovereignty of god. You could see the sovereign hand of god preparing a vessel for work and, and that's why, when I visit the west and I look at how, um uh often people are are pursuing comfort and pursuing and prioritizing comfort almost as a destiny, I feel like man. We're missing that which prepares you for life, because indeed, life is suffering and there might be moments of laughter and there might be moments of joy, but in the end, the most prepared soul is the one that's prepared to face the storm.
Speaker 1:Let's push into that a minute. I mean I feel like, as I've over the last decade, I want to say, become more friends with African pastors. I've sometimes thought, oh, probably I could beat you in theological chess, but you've got something to teach me about life and suffering in Christ and that is so much more important and I've wanted to just sit and learn from somebody like you and that's why I wanted to talk to you about it today.
Speaker 2:A good friend of mine, pastor Richard. I was talking with him not long before I came to visit Australia and he said to me you know, richmond, I counted a privilege that I've been imprisoned twice now for Christ. You know that's under the theme of what we're talking about here. God is giving him joy that's deeper than the shallow happiness that we often sometimes think that he's discovered a place of joy. I think you would trace that same joy to the old Roman cells where Paul is imprisoned and he's in there and his feet are shackled and his hands are shackled but he's singing.
Speaker 2:There is the worship happening in the prison cell and it's disturbing people like, why are you singing? But Paul is writing Think about where he was writing to the church in Philippi and he's telling them to rejoice. How can someone in prison write and say rejoice? And again I say rejoice. And there is an experience that God invites us to which, if we are not intentional and we're not leaning in enough, we stop shy of really stepping into that. When I was talking to Pastor Richard, you could see joy and it's not like he had anything material that he'd benefited from that. It's not like his kids were now in a better school because of that. It's just that he has stepped into some place that is deeper.
Speaker 2:And you read the scriptures and you hear lines after lines, as God does that which pleases him. God does that which pleases Him and he, as we read that which pleases God, we sometimes think that which pleases God is what pleases us and we're like, when we look at this life, that does not please me. I look at Richmond's story and Richmond's death. I mean Richmond's father's death and all that Richmond's mother is going through and what these kids are going through and all the circumstances of darkness around this. If I was God, I will not let that happen, but yet the Lord sees the end from the beginning and.
Speaker 1:He can see where he's taking this story.
Speaker 2:Oh, my mom, every border border rider and border border is a motorcycle that we use for transportation in Uganda, but every time my mom sits on one of those border borders they know her she's going to bring the Word of God and say, hey, hey, what if we got an accident here? Where would you go? Come on, and everyone knows who is coming on the bike. Ah, okay, so I'm going to hear the gospel through.
Speaker 1:Now. You had a critique a moment ago for those of us in the West on pursuing comfort. As I read it, we have this great problem in the Western church on theological revisionism and particularly sexuality. But people have talked to me about the great problem in the African church of the prosperity gospel and yet we've got the prosperity comfort thing in the West and prosperity comfort thing in the West and prosperity comfort thing in Africa Speak to me about.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're obviously leading this network of pastors and you must have the prosperity gospel nibbling around the edges all the time.
Speaker 2:Yes, indeed, we have a big problem of the prosperity gospel. It is indeed the reason why I actually ventured Pastors Discipleship Network. It's because I saw that whatever you win people with is what you win them to. And a lot of our people were saying they were Christians and what they were assenting to wasn't the gospel. And when they came in church and found that it wasn't true, that their chicken was still dying, that miscarriages were still happening, then they were falling into syncretism where, to please the pastor, they were showing up on Sunday and on Monday. They are back into witchcraft and they're back into all kinds of practice and corruption. And so the founding of Pastors Discipleship Network for me was an attempt to step into that space of saying there is truth and there is biblical truth and we can pursue it and we can teach it, and it's that truth that sets people free.
Speaker 2:There was a nibbling around the church that had gone even beyond nibbling, I would say. It had gone and almost stolen the soul of the church, where the prevailing reputation of the church in Africa had become synonymous with the name it and claim it movement the health and wealth gospel, Wealth and Wealth Gospel. And then there was all these lawsuits and sharings on social media. It was awash with all these things that pastors were doing and while it might seem like that indicates that the church in Africa was slipping into the space of comfort, this is actually just a few individuals, a few individuals that are praying over the poor. One person leading about 2,000, 3,000 people was the only one driving a car, was the only one wearing these suits. The rest were as poor, or even poorer than before they joined the ministry. So, yes, on the outside, when you look at it, it seems, yes, there's these flashy individuals who my ministry has come to conclude that they haven't actually come to know Christ. There is a gap there.
Speaker 1:So the prosperity gospel preacher I'm wanting to say is a non-Christian at that point.
Speaker 2:I would argue. I would argue Because there's something about them that is not dead and it's a different Jesus, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's a Jesus of come to Jesus and your life will be better, rather than come to the one who walked to the cross Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that's what we tell people around that just pause for a moment and think about suffering and think about life and take the full scripture as it's presented to us that there is the beginning of life and God intends for us to have life in all its fullness, and we see that in the garden.
Speaker 2:But then there is a fallenness that follows in Genesis 3, and that fallenness is real.
Speaker 2:There is still birth pain, the ground is still producing thorns and thistles, the snake is still alive, even though there is victory that we now see in Jesus. Until that day comes when the final entrance of the Lord for the ultimate salvation happens, there is a journey that we must take and there is a partnership in this fallen world that God is inviting us to join him in bringing about his kingdom. And I think that the theology has been lost and we have taken suffering and categorized it in such a way that it has left us bare and very exposed that we don't know what to do when the sun is hotter than we thought, when the storms come in, when the wind comes in, and yet God is with us. The idea of the name Emmanuel is to comfort us in times like that, but when we reject some of what life offers and brings to us, then all of a sudden, we cannot access the depth and meaning and the comfort that comes from the name Emmanuel and what God wants us to understand.
Speaker 1:Now you alluded to this a minute ago. I mean, and you are somebody who travels to the West quite a bit now I mean you're pastoring this church but doing the network in Uganda, but then you're over here, whether it's Australia, the UK, we're Facebook friends, I see. But what's your reaction when you come to the West and you see us and I mean I'm thinking it's minimum culture shock. But actually there's probably a theological problem that you can put your finger on.
Speaker 2:To be honest, when I come and I look at how much has been given, I fear for you. I genuinely, genuinely do fear, and there's a part of me that actually feels sorry for a generation that has this much access or this much privilege or this much entitlement, because to me, to whom much is given, much is required.
Speaker 1:We think that's from Spider-Man, but it's actually from Jesus, it's actually from Jesus it is.
Speaker 2:I look and say look. If the people in the West would wake up to consider all that is in their hands from the perspective of the sovereignty of God, then other themes such as responsibility, generosity, love would float to the surface, a stronger expression of the church and indeed the body, in a way that changes the world and makes it a far better place than we currently see it. But whenever there is a with comfort and the pursuit of it, comes individualism and comes territorialism, and then all of a sudden it drives us into the world that we are seeing right now.
Speaker 1:Now you've just said that in quite general categories I mean, don't name a name or name the church's name, but make it more concrete for me.
Speaker 2:The individual who wakes up in Australia. If you ask them how are you doing, they might say I'm doing okay, but. And then they have a whole list of buts. And when you consider the list of buts then you'll see that they are talking about oh, there's no cable, the fridge is not as full as and I haven't paid the subscription, or my insurance is this and that. And I look at that and I say, okay.
Speaker 2:Contextually, I understand that If you ask the pastor, for example, how are you doing, they might say, oh, the lights at church are not working as well, or the sound equipment. Or I saw the church down the street that has new equipment, or newer lights and a better this, and so, oh, I think I'm failing, or I wish I had this or I wish I had that. And I'm not saying that there is no place and room for pursuing a more convenient and a more efficient life. I think that there's a lot of room for that. But I do think that there is a way a person can be more leaned into the sovereignty of God, saying the only question that matters is am I doing my best, as God has enabled me? And if they step into that space of doing their best, then they can know. You know what, in plenty and in lack, I can do all things through Christ, who gives me strength.
Speaker 1:Back to your current ministry in Uganda, and I mean you're pastoring the same church that reached out to you as an eight-year-old when you became a compassion child. I've visited a number of compassion sites overseas and done the inspection with a group of Western pastors and that kind of thing. But what does it look like on the ground for you as the pastor of a church ministering through that program? How does that work?
Speaker 2:So, as a person who grew up through the program, I cannot tell you what a privilege it is and how exciting it is to be on the other side now, standing at the door, receiving these children who have these incredible stories and speaking hope into their lives. What does it feel like and what does it look like is incredible. Nothing beats the sound of children, whether they are singing or them playing or them even crying. Nothing beats that. You can't ignore it. It reaches the deepest.
Speaker 1:I mean it is strange I haven't seen you for nine years. Yeah, but I just remember the way you said Richmond, you have a sponsor. Yes, and the joy that that news I mean. I think for myself, I think back of the day I came to Christ as a pivotal day, but for you, when you said at Richmond, you have a sponsor, it was such a pivotal day but it actually led to the day I came to Christ. Yes, it did led to the day I came to.
Speaker 2:Christ, no-transcript. Mary, you have a sponsor. Zacharia, you have a sponsor. Lawrence, you have a sponsor. And the day I heard those words, the lights went on. For me it was like Christmas. My mom danced like she has no heart and bone in her. I was crazy releasing the chigisu dance and it was incredible Releasing the chigisu dance. We dance a lot using our shoulders.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, sir, it's the dance you do, right, sir? I thought you were going to just open the chicken cage. No, no, no, no, be a bit more controlled, yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's incredible and I think and I pray that a lot of people who step into that space of touching other people's stories through their prayers and through generosity, that you get a privilege of seeing what happens. Sometimes God will let us have that privilege and sometimes not. I've seen a lot of people who sponsor children and they never visit the children and they never visit their countries. But then there are those who get the opportunity to do that and my sponsor had the joy and I had the privilege of having them visit. It was, I mean, amazing, Amazing to meet that girl Heather.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us today A privilege. Richmond Wanderer has been my guest on the Pastor's Heart and he pastors the church in Nuguru in Kampala in Uganda and leads the Pastors Discipleship Network. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
