.png)
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thepastorsheart">Facebook</a> then on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@ThePastorsHeart">YouTube</a> and on our <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> website and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Straight from the Summit: Double the number of reformed evangelicals in Australia over twenty years.
In a bold move, a meeting of movement leaders from across Australian Reformed Evangelicalism has resolved to work together to see their numbers double over twenty years, through seeing sinners saved.
Leaders gathered for a mini summit organised by The Gospel Coalition Australia at Sydney’s Moore Theological College last week.
Gospel Coalition Australia Chair Rory Shiner says given the unparalleled theological and missional unity between the different organisations there’s a significant window of opportunity to work productively together for God’s glory.
They agreed to work towards an effective target of growing five percent per year through conversion growth.
The Gospel Coalition’s Rory Shiner and Sarah Kuswadi, Reach Australia’s Andrew Heard and Queensland Theological College Principal Gary Millar came straight from the Summit to our The Pastor’s Heart studio to discuss the outcomes of the day and plans for the future.
The Church Co
thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Anglican Aid
Anglican Aid - To find out more about how to support Anglican Aid.
Advertise on The Pastor's Heart
To advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsor
A potentially significant moment, a new collaborative goal for Australia's Reformed Evangelicals. It is the pastor's heart, it's Dominic Steele, our guests today Rory Shiner, gary Miller, andrew Heard and Sarah Kaswadi. We are at a significant moment of unity, of theological and missional alignment in the Reformed Evangelical Community of Australia. But having arrived at that sense of theological and missional alignment, where should we go? Today, on the Pastor's Heart, we are taking you inside the discussions of the Gospel Coalition Australia mini-summit just wrapped up at Moore Theological College in Sydney. A key target flowing out of the day is to work to double the number of Reformed evangelicals in Australia over the next 20 years through conversion growth, that's, pursuing a 5% growth each year through Saving the Lost.
Speaker 1:Our guest today from the Gospel Coalition Australia, rory Shiner. He's here from Perth and chair of the Gospel Coalition Australia. Sarah Kaswadi, from Brisbane, is the chief operating officer of the Gospel Coalition. Andrew Heard is with us from EV Church on the Central Coast and from REACH Australia. And Gary Miller, principal of Queensland's Theological College, is also with us. Gary, I wonder if we might start with the pastor's heart. And you raised that God had called up Jeremiah when he was a teenager and he wasn't just feeling hopelessly inadequate, but was hopelessly inadequate for the task of mission.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rory asked me to kick the day off by opening up the Bible. Jeremiah seemed like a helpful place to go, because I do think one of the dangers that we all have when we start to think big picture, when we start to try to pull leaders together, is that we slip into thinking that, ultimately, we have the power to change people's lives. We have the power to change the church, to change the world, when we know, at the end of the day, every conversation we have, every responsibility that falls to us, it's all operative under the sovereignty of God, and I think that's where we began the day, knowing that we were going on to look at some things that we are responsible for, some things that we want to do, some things that we want to pursue and pray for. But at the beginning we wanted to express our dependence on God, which isn't really an option. We are dependent on God for him to give the growth, change people's lives, bring people to new life across Australia and beyond.
Speaker 1:And yet, rory Shiner, I'm paddling through doing the ministry and sometimes I don't stop to look up. But you got me to stop and look up and reflect that there is a moment of unity amongst evangelicals in Australia at the moment that perhaps we haven't seen since 1959.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do think that I think I could defend that. It's actually one of the things about you know, you don't ask a fish what water's like, and it's one of the things that you don't notice in the day-to-day. And reflecting on 1959, which is when Billy Graham came to Australia, and it was a very significant moment in Australian history in general and let alone in the history of Australian evangelicals and the reaching of people. It was a very significant amount of conversions and people presenting for missionary service, so it was a very big moment. And, of course, to pull off 1959, there's a lot of work in 1958, 1957, 1956, 1955, and the churches really coalesced and gathered around Billy Graham coming to put a lot of time and effort into that. And there's a natural thing there where you have a goal and it's a goal at a certain time and place that Billy Graham will come out and is very good. And people talk about the unity that evangelicals had at that time and my reflection is that in that unity was very worthwhile and made a very good thing possible.
Speaker 3:I that you should use the word just but beyond believing in an evangelical, believes that the saving work of Jesus, personal faith in him, repentance and faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation to save us from the judgment of God.
Speaker 3:And in addition to that, as I kind of you know, go around Australia and do my day job and do work with the Gospel Coalition.
Speaker 3:I go into room after room, ministry after ministry, context after context, and think, oh, we agree, like almost to the decimal point. So, on the priority of evangelism, the use of expository, preaching, working through the Word of God, a biblical, theological approach to the Bible, having the Bible at the center of our evangelism and discipleship, a very strong kind of intuitive sense of keeping second things in second place and a really almost unselfconscious work across independent Anglican, presbyterian, baptist. You know context that I take for granted and shouldn't take for granted, because it is an extraordinary thing to do with the people that came before us and the kind of work and the shoulders that we stand on, and I think it is. We should do something with that. We should think well, given that you know, historically our ancestors were able to pull off a thing with probably less in common, when we have these agreements right down to ministry, philosophy and so on, and it does feel like we're better than we were 10 years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and so you know you would never want to take that for granted. But that, yeah, I think that and I think I mean unity as an end in itself is not particularly worthwhile, because you've got to work out unity around what and to what end. But I think, because that unity is around a shared understanding of the gospel and a shared understanding of the urgency of the gospel for the salvation of the lost, and a biblical theology and all these other things, I think we could do a lot together. That would be worthwhile, without having to second guess what we meant by this word and that word, and so I think we should just make hay while the sun shines and say what could we do?
Speaker 1:And so, sarah, as you planned the mini summit, you wanted to put to us that it's not just what we might do, but what we might do together.
Speaker 4:Yep, that's right. So we feel quite strongly that, while there are differences between the different groups of people that came together, there actually is heaps more that are similarities, and so that's what the focus was on, and how beautiful is it that we can come together as sisters and brothers in Christ and be unified and think about what it is we can do together, rather than looking at the smaller things that set us apart.
Speaker 1:Andrew, perhaps we could start with you in terms of the content of the day, because you really began the day by throwing some rocks into the pond and stirring us up. Yeah, what we do and how we do, it makes a difference to the outcomes that we're going to see in the gospel in Australia.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I started with a bunch of principles and the first one was that, yeah, that if we take seriously that under God's sovereignty we have an impact on what happens, the way we do things, what we do, they change the consequences, the spiritual outcomes. If we take that seriously, then we need to grasp what opportunities we have and deal with what problems face us and see under God what we can do to make a difference. So that's a very big principle, it's a compatibilism of understanding God's sovereignty, our responsibility and the peace in that that we take that seriously.
Speaker 1:You then said the fruit that matters most is conversion fruit.
Speaker 5:And elaborate.
Speaker 5:Well, I made the case that there's lots of things we are called to do, but, given the realities of God's righteous judgment to come, the eternality of hell, the fact that before him this life is very brief, his calling in Matthew 28, various of these things, it's very clear that what the church is called to do as a priority is to seek and save the lost, to make disciples, where making disciples means getting people saved and growing them in their walk with Christ, so that there's genuine transformation of life. This has to be our priority and I think, as Rory's reflecting, it is something that is a shared conviction amongst us. This is not something that we tend to need to argue for so much, but I do think we need to bring it to the surface. There's a kind of in the busyness of all the ministries that we do, all the different pressures on us, there is a collegiality, there's a kind of a get together and remind each other of what we already are convinced of. That can strengthen and fire the heart, and I think that's all we're doing together.
Speaker 1:And Rory, I think there was a sense that we do get swamped. It is foggy, we get dragged down by the minutiae of the day, but the idea that we might strive to really see the number of Reformed evangelical Christians in church double in 20 years did seem to kind of grip the room during the day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's right. That was in Andrew's original paper. Now, I hadn't heard Andrew's paper before, and I don't think anyone had, because it had been written quite close to the day.
Speaker 5:There's the spirit, lead right, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:But it was interesting that you know the way we designed the day was to not prejudice the results, to say let's see what happens, and so on. It's interesting that you know the way we designed the day was to not prejudice the results, to say let's see what happens, and so on. It's interesting that by the end of the day, that had stuck in people's imaginations and we clarified what we meant by that, that we don't, that doubling is simultaneously imaginable. Like you could, I think anyone could, look at the ministry they're currently involved in and think what would this look like if it was twice as many people involved? Like you could, I think anyone could look at the ministry they're currently involved in and think what would this look like if it was twice as if it was twice as many people involved, and you can imagine that.
Speaker 3:But then I, I think the thing that got me and maybe got got a number of us is I thought that's enough of a change that I would need to change and we would need to change. So, uh, close enough to be encouraging. And you know, if someone, if someone says, oh, wouldn't it be great if this was, you know, 10x or whatever, I think that would be great and it's almost unimaginable. But twice as uh, you know, to see things double grow twice as much is simultaneously imaginable. You know, one would think achievable, um, but not achievable by a situation. Normal, steady as she goes. I think there's a thing there that puts the right amount of fire to your feet to think okay, I would need to think differently about some of what we're currently doing.
Speaker 1:And we're talking 5% conversion growth a year. Really.
Speaker 5:Yes that's right. It's probably a bit less actually, but yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Now, sarah, one of the things Rory got us to do, and perhaps you could describe it for us the horseshoe as we're processing this, and then we'll get you guys to weigh in on the horseshoe issues.
Speaker 4:Yep. So Rory, in his infinite wisdom, asked everyone in the room to stand up, which was a relief after being sitting down for a while, and then we were asked to stand in a position of where we felt we were in relation to what it was that Andrew had said. So whether you felt really strongly, less so in the middle, or really anti, Gary, where were you?
Speaker 2:I was depending on the question, I was either right beside Andrew or as far from Andrew as it was possible.
Speaker 5:Only for a moment.
Speaker 2:Only for a moment. Yes, I think, on the doubling the number of Reformed evangelicals, again, like Rory, I was quite, I mean, I was deeply encouraged by it. But I think having a high-level goal like that it doesn't necessarily mean that every church in Australia will double in size, because, well, we know that won't happen for all kinds of factors. Some may shrink but we will need to plan new churches in order to reach that. But I think for me it's the kind of goal you know it works on the Central Coast, it works in, you know, Chinchilla in regional Queensland, it works in Perth and, you know, across the nation.
Speaker 2:I think it is something that together, all of us can say, yeah, that's something we can pray for and work for. And it sharpens the focus on needing to grow by the proclamation of the gospel and people coming to new life in Christ. And I think that there was a real sense in the room. Even those who were kind of right the horseshoe a little were really right the horseshoe in terms of how best do we articulate this? But preface any objections by saying yes, we're right with you. In fact, some of those who were opposed to the doubling goal were actually saying we should go with tripling.
Speaker 4:But I think if the goal had been too massive, it's not going to be achievable or measurable. So, yes, we want all of Australia to become Christians, but let's be realistic, so we can have a goal that we can actually be working towards, rather than something that you're unlikely to achieve.
Speaker 1:Break it down for us a bit, Andrew. What's it going to look like to achieve that? How would that happen?
Speaker 5:To double. Yeah Well, there's two big things and we've talked about these before. But at the very least either means each church twice as big or twice as many churches, and as soon as you articulate it like that, it's not business as usual anymore. It's helping us capture our congregations in existing churches with a sense that we can't just do church for what we find comfortable. We actually have to think about reaching the region around us in such a way that it changes the dynamics.
Speaker 5:This church can't be like it's always been. There's got to be some change there, or we've got to be prepared to accept a church a street away, another church plant, and we've got to embrace the financial cost of all of that If we're actually going to double. It has implications for property. It's got implications for pastoral staff. It's got all kinds of consequences that will cost. And to capture people with that vision, driven by a love of God's glory, that people appreciate the need to save their neighbours, friends, families, these things, I think, can motivate us to bring about some real change that might facilitate a real outcome that's to the glory of God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's. One of the things that we grappled with a bit was that I don't think any of us and I don't think the average congregation person finds numbers for numbers sake exciting, and I don't think they should or need to. But the background to the summit was a bunch of. We had an opportunity on the TGCA website to speak into where you thought some of the issues and challenges were, and one of the things that came through really clearly was that people you know, christians in evangelical Christian Australia just genuinely love the Lord and want their neighbours to know the Lord. And it really helps to say, well, that's what it would look like and I think everyone would think, oh, I want you know. It really helps to say, well, that's what it would look like, and I think everyone would think, oh, I want you know, I want my friends and neighbours to know Jesus, to stand in his grace, to be saved from the wrath of God and so on.
Speaker 3:And then the next step in the imagination to say is to be able to look around and say, well, there's not enough room for them and we've got to be able to reach them. And other thing that came up which you might end up talking about is a really strong concern, both in the responses that came in through the website and in the room that we reach. When you talk about doubling, it does make you think who aren't we reaching? Where are the groups of, I mean you think, the physical places where it's tough to plant churches, to establish ministries, remote suburbs, for whatever reason, that are difficult, and where are the people groups that we're perhaps missing and so on? And I think part of it, part of this thinking, is to just help us unlock that and drive at that achievable but very stretching goal by thinking about what it would actually mean to reach friends and neighbours in ways that they could have a fighting chance to come in on.
Speaker 1:Let's come to that in a moment, but first I just want to come back to you, andrew. And you then landed, I think, on two areas. One which was if we're to get there, we're going to need godly and effective senior leaders, and that's an area. But also there's a heart issue, a lack of evangelistic zeal floating around it. Let's do the senior leader task first.
Speaker 5:Look under God. The key structure that we have that God has given us is the church, that's the community of faith that God's called together by the gospel as the means by which he empowers and strengthens us to go out and reach more people. But the key, humanly speaking, to the health of that community are those put in place to lead it, whether it's depending on the governance structure, of course, of your church, and so paying attention to that dynamic matters. If we want to see gospel communities that are captivated by the things of Christ and able to deal with all the blockages like materialism and greed and this worldliness, and be envisaged to see the lostness of the lost, we need people to be bringing the word to bear, to be stirring our hearts through the word and so on, and that falls very often on the key leaders of the church, and so we've got to pay attention there. We want to pay attention everywhere, but of course that's a key piece that we need to consider and think about.
Speaker 1:You got a little pushback from Gary Miller on the plurality of leaders.
Speaker 2:There was a Presbyterian voice led alongside that. Yeah, I don't just I don't disagree with that, but I do think across the breadth of our kind of reformed evangelical churches, it's, it's also very important in many contexts to to train elders or elder type figures, because, you know, we, in some contexts I can think of, you know, you get a, a grinding of the gears when you have a, you know, a new pastor arrive, but the local leadership who, in many places, have been there for a long time and are going to be there after the pastor, that if, if we are going to see long-term growth in every community across australia, if we are going to see long-term growth in every community across australia, if we are going to see, you know, continued growth of the gospel, um, that that, alongside this senior pastor being equipped and shaped and formed and motivated, I I think there is another piece in terms of the shared leadership, which is, you know, obviously is more of an issue, you know, in some kind of ways, of doing church than in others.
Speaker 2:But I think it was really augmenting what Andrew was saying, rather than you know, than arguing with it.
Speaker 3:Rory, yeah, on the leadership piece, yeah, yeah, I mean, I do think that that is. We grapple with that. I think that is a very important point, both in terms of I think generically you can mount a very strong biblical case that the elders, pastors, teachers of the church are hugely significant for the health of the church and so you can, by putting energy into creating the kind of character and competency and commitment, that's a place where you can pull a lever and affect the whole, the nature of leadership at one level. And I think that, sitting alongside that determination to think um, uh, instead of thinking um, you know what, what's business as usual, whatever, to think, what does it take to do this work?
Speaker 3:And I think andrew just said before that you've either just on that little thought experiment of doubling the numbers you either need you know twice as many churches or require almost all of us to grow in our capacity to do that, because I think church planting has its own set of dynamics and demands and skills, and so not that we're choosing between these, but if you said, let's do it by planting more churches, that's a huge amount of people that have to learn a very specific set of both skills and then resilience and capacity to do that, and or the people that are going to see these churches grow.
Speaker 3:I think we had the Presbyterian saying his piece and we need to think through that. That's an important thing, because you are touching now, I think, maybe something that Gary mentioned, that we are. We're not just being pragmatic. We're coming up against ecclesiology there and what it means to be the church and what it means to lead the church, but I think as a summit, we're in furious agreement at that level that the health of the church is so caught up in the leadership.
Speaker 5:But in a sense the ecclesiology is important. Of course there's differences, but whoever functions in a leadership role, whatever church they're in, they've got to pay attention to leading people and working together with other leaders in the church, whether it's an eldership board or a parish council or whatever it is. So developing leadership so that it's engaged, connected, able to bring along with the cause that we're about, that's the thing we need to all develop together, and doing that in whatever context.
Speaker 1:And we're going to have to grow if I'm going to learn to manage a bigger group.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need to grow in our leadership.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, yeah, sarah. Next area and Rory alluded to this a moment ago is other parts of Australia that we're not effectively reaching, and I mean we could name a whole lot like the divorced community, that kind of thing, but the big one was the non-tertiary educated.
Speaker 4:Sure.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, we had a whole lot of stats, but one of the main ones was that around 70% of people aren't coming from a tertiary education background and that actually isn't necessarily reflective of the attendance in church at the moment and that, yeah, that that's actually a gap and we are seeing that sort of reflected in the way that people are welcomed into church.
Speaker 4:That, like when you meet someone, straight after asking their name, you say, well, what is it that you do during the week? And the feedback was that people who aren't necessarily from a sort of university background might not necessarily identify so much about what it is that their career is and that maybe that isn't actually being welcoming to those people. And yeah, I sort of feel sad about that because I would want anyone who walked into church to feel welcomed and feel appreciated, and I think it's worth, like exploring a bit more to make sure we fully understand how to do that, because when you first meet someone, it is a little bit awkward, like you want to have a question that gets them talking about themselves, so that's why you ask it. But I'm sure there are other questions that could be asked and I'm sure that we could become better at welcoming people so that they get connected into the gospel and that that isn't a barrier to them returning another time.
Speaker 2:It was quite striking. You know the statistics, across the board it was roughly it was about 50, we have 50% with half the proportion of non-tertiary educated people in church than there are in society. You know that's a big gap and it was across every age range, which was really quite striking. Which says, you know, whatever the precise nature of the problem, there is an issue, and I suspect it's partly that there are large, there are probably socioeconomic areas that we just don't really have Reformed evangelical churches, and that's something we need to take seriously. And that's only part of the problem, but it's a significant piece.
Speaker 1:The growing percentage of migrants born overseas living in our. The changing face of multicultural Australia is also a massive issue for us for the next 20 years, rory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right. We took a paper on that particular piece. I think, from memory, about 30% of people born overseas. So the way I think about it, if you're on a bus and there's 100 people there, you can expect you know, on average, 30% of them to be overseas born, and then you expect another however many percent. I mean, go back long enough and it's 99% but you'll have these very large migrant communities. We did a bit of reflecting on that because you've got a few things going on there. You've got the migrant challenge of the second and third generation and that's a very interesting and complicated dynamic of what does it mean for the kids of people that have integrated their children into Australian society, dynamic of what does it mean for the kids of people that have integrated their children into australian society. We had some interesting discussion around um, the religiosity of migrant communities, often much higher than the um, the kind of anglo-australian I was really quite surprised about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, keep going well, it's just, it's just interesting to reflect on. I don't think we, you know, is it? We were, we were together for a short period of time, so we weren't, we were asking questions rather than purporting to have any of the answers. But you do, yeah, you do have very religious communities in places like in the southwest of Sydney, in certain parts of Melbourne and so on, where our conversation is often about secularism and secularisation, and it's just worth noting that those communities are not very secular, whatever else, they are Catholic or Muslim or backgrounds and so on.
Speaker 3:And I think, both with the non-tertiary educated and the migrant communities of different religious hues and so on, and as well as just the migrant experience and what that means for church and life and stuff, I think the consensus, the zero pushback in the room was on that we ought to reach everyone for Jesus and whatever it takes and I think the tricky bit is whatever it takes, because it does take something Like it's not just putting up a sign saying you know migrants welcome or you know blue-collar people now included.
Speaker 3:There's a whole lot of really determined work which I think you pick up in the Apostle Paul in somewhere like 1 Corinthians in his letter to the Corinthians that doing all things by all means beating his body, that the kind of discipline and hard work that sits alongside, which is part of your compatible, the compatibilism of those two, that sits alongside the grace of God, and we can't. God needs to be at work for anything worthwhile to happen, but to have to name that as a challenge, and a challenge where we don't want to just let slide, it's not okay.
Speaker 1:It's not okay to be in a country where whole substance of people, where our ministry, isn't meeting them Now acknowledging that the statement it's not only that the ink's not dry, it's still in your head and on your laptop and that kind of thing, but bullet points were listed at the end of the day and agreed on and we're leaving the work, smith, to you and a little committee. But what are you excited about coming out of the day? What are you excited about? We'll go around the room and finish with you, andrew, so we'll start with you, gary.
Speaker 2:One of the issues that the Gospel Coalition has had here in Australia is we pulled people together, but what were we actually doing? And I think it was very exciting to identify just, I think, some key challenges that we can all say, yes, those are the things that are right in our face. And to be in a room with a bunch of people who were all going, yes, we're going to pray and throw ourselves into meeting these challenges in this day. I think there was actually real energy in the room and it was very encouraging to be part of that. Sarah.
Speaker 4:I was quite excited that, from the data, so many people pointed out that they think the most important thing to do is to pray. And I think we can often say, oh yeah, we should pray and feel quite godly about saying that, but actually you've got to do it. You've got to be committed to doing the praying. And I also feel quite excited that it was kind of like we had structured the day and had a lot of meetings like planning it out. But yeah, we have this phrase where we talk about landing the plane and I feel like the plane landed. It just needs to get to the terminal now. And if the plane's already landed, that's pretty good, right.
Speaker 1:It's not that far to go. Well, you said to me at afternoon tea I don't know what's going to happen now, it's all going to land, and then actually everyone was safe at the end, rory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, you alluded to it. As I say, it wasn't the plan at the beginning of the day, but as a room, you know, we moved towards this idea of working on a statement to kind of communicate, at least to each other what we committed to. And I think the thing that I think there was a determination at and there's been a lot of back work for these previous meetings with similar groups and analogous groups, I think something Andrew said is that there's just an air miles that you've just got to clock up time with each other to think, pray, go down a corridor that turns out to be the wrong corridor, go this way, hear each other and so on, and so it was very encouraging to think that there's a sense of let's do what we can to see, I guess, to seize that moment I was saying at the start, that unusual or never-take-it-for-granted sense of unity around the gospel and ministry practice and so on. Come away, my heart is full, andrew.
Speaker 5:Look, I think there's a lot that can happen when a group of people are captivated by the cause of the gospel and that's been something that's been sitting there for a long time in our world and I think to bring it together, to get it to come to the surface, with a sense that there's a growing crowd of leaders around the country in diverse groups who now want to sing more and more clearly from the same song sheet, you know, there's a growing sense that we don't just want to do church and we've never just done church. We don't want to do church, we just don't want to do it. We want to actually see a tangible change across our country for the cause of Christ and we want to give ourselves wholeheartedly to that. I think, once there's a growing energy for that, I think it's exactly the kind of thing God blesses, isn't it? As we cry out to him in a growing sense together for that, we're right to expect that.
Speaker 1:God will bless it. Thank you so much for coming in. Before you fly back to Queensland, fly back to Western Australia and drive back to the Central.
Speaker 5:Coast Drive back to the Central Coast.
Speaker 1:My guests on the Pastor's Heart Andrew Hurd from Reach Australia and Senior Pastor of EV Church on the Central Coast. Rory Shiner leads the Providence Network of Churches in Perth and is Chair of Gospel Coalition Australia. Sarah Kaswadi is Chief Operating Officer of the Gospel Coalition Australia and Gary Miller is the Principal of Queensland's Theological College. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart and we'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
