The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
SPECIAL: Will the Pope go to heaven? Protestants understanding Roman Catholicism in a Post-Francis world
The death of Pope Francis marks a pivotal moment for Roman Catholics.
What does this transition mean for the future of Catholicism and how should Protestants respond?
From Vatican City, Leonardo Di Chirico offers a firsthand perspective on reactions in Rome, while Rachel Ciano provides historical context from Sydney.
Many Protestant leaders have referred to Francis as a "brother in Christ," but Francis's final public act—granting indulgences during Easter—epitomizes the theological chasm between Catholic and Protestant understandings of salvation.
His distinctive Marian devotion and frequent requests for prayers further highlight fundamental differences in how salvation is understood.
The contrast between Benedict XVI's emphasis on Roman doctrine and Francis's focus on Catholic universality reveals a pendulum swing in Roman Catholicism that will likely now swing back.
Leonardo di Chirico is pastor of the Church Brecca di Roma and director of the Reformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano lectures in Christianity and History at sydney missionary and bible college, and is part of the faculty at the Rome scholars and leaders network, hosted by The Reformanda Initiative.
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It is the pastor's heart, and Dominic Steele in a special edition. Now Pope Francis is dead. How should Protestants react? And what next for Roman Catholicism? Leonardo Di Chirico is with us on the line from Vatican City and Rachel Ciano is with me here in Sydney. Leonardo is pastor of the church Breccia di Roma and director of the Reformanda Institute. Rachel lectures in Christianity and history at Sydney Missionary and Bible College and is part of the faculty at the Rome Scholars and Leaders Network hosted by the Reformanda Initiative. Leonardo, if we could start with you and look, I understand the outpouring of grief from Roman Catholics, but what's the reaction of Protestants in Rome to the death of Francis?
Speaker 2:Well, protestants have been dealing with Pope Francis for 13 years, the years of his reign, and they've been accustomed to having to do with the Pope who in many ways, changed the attitude, the tone of the Pope, the papal office, with regards to non-Catholic people. And so now theyants here are expressing condolences to their neighbors but at the same time affirming the fact that, while the vicar, the so-called vicar of Christ is dead, the risen Christ is alive and the gospel is true. And so, taking advantage of this time of grief to convey, to take the opportunity to talk about the gospel hope that we have in Christ, and Christ is alive.
Speaker 1:Rachel, I have been surprised at the reaction here and not just here, but around the blogosphere, as I've read people of different Protestants wanting I mean wanting compassionately to express grief about the death of Francis and yet wanting to acknowledge him as a Christian brother. And what's your reaction there? How have you reacted when you've seen that online?
Speaker 3:In a way, it makes sense that they're calling on Pope Francis as a brother, because Pope Francis has been very skillful during his papacy at using the language of brotherhood. His encyclical we're All Brothers and his Joy of the Gospel, evangelii Gaudium, used language that's very inclusive, very Catholic, very universal, very embracing, to try and call people essentially back to Rome by calling them brothers and inviting them in.
Speaker 1:And downplaying differences.
Speaker 3:Downplaying differences, using language that makes sense to evangelicals, even if the meaning of those words is not agreed upon.
Speaker 1:So, leonardo, could you just help me here? The Roman Catholic Church teaches indulgences and it's the Pope who actually, in the end, administers the indulgences. And so, by definition, unless the Pope were to repudiate indulgences, he cannot be a justification by faith alone. Person.
Speaker 2:No, actually, his last public engagement was an offering of an indulgence, the Urbi et Orbi benediction, on Easter day, the last time he became visible and showed up In granting that blessing, he gave an indulgence to all the people, not only who were present there in St Peter's Square, but also to all those who would receive it via television and digital means. And so the whole theology of indulgences contradicts the basic understanding of justification by faith alone, and we're going, we're back to the controversies in the 16th century. In that sense, rome hasn't changed Pope Francis. Although he would often talk about grace, faith, it never really changed not only his mind but also, more importantly, the teaching of the Catholic Church with regards to justification by faith. Rome is not committed to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. It's still committed to this view whereby grace is necessary but not in itself sufficient. Faith is necessary but not sufficient. And so everything else flows out of this confusion.
Speaker 1:And if I'm relying on an indulgence, then I'm not trusting in Christ alone for my salvation and I can't actually have a guarantee of myself making it to heaven.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's true. It to heaven? Yes, that's true, you are actually. The idea is that you have to be purified before entering heaven, and purification entails your works, your paying of the price of your temporal sins. And so Christ's work is not sufficient, god's grace is not sufficient and the gift of faith is not sufficient. You are supposed to do something to supplement what God has done for you. So, in this sense, the whole theology of indulgences defies the sufficiency of the work of Christ and the sufficiency of God's grace for our salvation.
Speaker 1:Just keeping on going on that, rachel. The masses that are going to be celebrated for Francis post his death are actually evidence that even he doesn't think his salvation is assured.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. He keeps asking, or in his life, kept asking people pray for me, pray for me. And so now, upon his death, those prayers continue because salvation is not assured even for Pope Francis. And so the masses are said for the dead, and now include Pope Francis.
Speaker 1:And that's every day For nine days, for nine days.
Speaker 3:Masses for the dead, so they are a way of continuing to obtain the grace of God on behalf of the deceased person.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, it's just mind-boggling, really, isn't it? But now, what about him and Mary? Because he has a particular devotion to Mary.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. He draws very close to Mary. He drew very close to Mary in his life. He would be praying the rosary daily, calling on Mary.
Speaker 1:I find the rosary so exasperating. It says Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen. So that right there, at the moment that I die, mary is interceding for me because I don't have a guarantee of salvation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's the one who is able to help you access the grace of God.
Speaker 1:She's the one who is able to give you the ear of her son, francis, can't be guaranteed. No Catholic is guaranteed.
Speaker 3:So he dedicated his papacy to Mary. His first act upon being elected Pope was to go to St Mary Major in Rome. That's where he wants to be buried. He's going to be one of the first Popes in a few hundred years to be buried outside of the Vatican. So Mary was such a central part of his spirituality and would have formed a central part of his spirituality as he drew close to death.
Speaker 1:Not a gospel, man yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's difficult to not call on Jesus at the hour of your death and be called a gospel person. The person who I want to call on at the hour of my death is Jesus, because he has walked out of the tomb. Mary, by virtue of not just the immaculate conception, butption, means that she never quite tasted the sting and fullness of death, and so she can't sympathise with my weakness. Jesus, can he tasted the full agony of death? And he's the name that I want to call on as I die.
Speaker 1:So what do you think is going on with evangelical leader after evangelical leader, who seems to be referring to the Pope as a brother in Christ and speaking as if he's about to be enjoying eternal life?
Speaker 3:I think a few things are going on.
Speaker 3:I think there's a deep desire for unity, but then we need to have the discussion what are we united around? If we're united around the gospel, what is the gospel according to the Roman Catholic Church? What is the gospel that is re-illuminated in the 16th century in the Reformation movement? And so I think there's a desire for unity, but there's a misunderstanding of key ideas and how they're articulated in Rome, catholicism and within evangelicalism, protestantism more broadly, and Laos touched on the necessity for working with God in accessing grace. So grace is accessed and not through the finished work of Christ on the cross and his resurrection, as we've just celebrated in Easter, but it's accessed through the sacraments. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life, according to the Roman Catholic Catechism, and so partaking in that sacrament and in the sacramental system is necessary for salvation, and so there's a big difference on what the gospel is. I think Protestants are wanting to extend generosity towards Pope Francis and the Roman Catholic Church, but there's often a misunderstanding of the issues that lie underneath that, and we can't forget that post-Vatican II theology and the movement of the Roman Catholic Church is moving towards a more Catholic characteristic of the Roman Catholic Church towards a more Catholic characteristic of the Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the legacy that Francis leaves versus the legacy that Benedict left 12, 13 years ago, and how has it changed? How has the Roman Catholic Church changed in the 12, 13 years? Let's start with you, leonardo.
Speaker 2:Well, to put it simply, Benedict tried to reinforce the Roman structures of Roman Catholicism at a time when they were questioned and even undermined the moral authority of the Church, the doctrinal outlook of the Church, the Catholic catechism, catholic positioning in global issues, and so on. He tried to solidify the Roman character of the Roman Catholic Church. But his papacy ended up abruptly with the resignation, and the resignation was a symbol of, in many ways, the failure of that project. Francis tried to do the opposite, tried to expand the Catholicity of Rome, the embracement, the inclusive nature of Catholic claims and practices, and downplaying the Roman outlook of the Roman Church. And so I think this comparison and contrast helps to understand the difference between the two legacies One wanting to affirm the Roman hard core, hard power of the Catholic Church Catechism, doctrine, theology, sacraments and the other one, francis' one, wanting to instead underline the Catholic soul of the Catholic Church, the motherly embracing, affirming attitude of the Church towards all.
Speaker 1:It feels, Rachel, as if a Protestant relating with Catholicism at the end of Benedict's time is relating to a very different Catholicism to the Catholicism at the end of Francis' time different Catholicism to the Catholicism at the end of Francis's time.
Speaker 3:I think it's the same Catholicism but different natures of the church are emphasised. So in Pope Benedict's reign it's the Roman nature, but never forgetting the Catholic, the inclusive. And in Francis's papacy, it is the Catholic embrace, brotherhood, come back to Rome call that is emphasised without ever dropping the Roman-ness.
Speaker 1:Francis was a church priest, but it's a pendulum swing.
Speaker 3:It's a pendulum swing without ever dropping the other. The emphases change, and so it's going to be interesting to see who is next chosen to be Pope.
Speaker 1:I guess that's the big question is does the pendulum keep swinging further out or does it swing back? What's your expectation, leonardo?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that Pope Francis came close to the maximum stretching point, perhaps the breaking point of the whole system maximum stretching point, perhaps the breaking point of the whole system and in the end he kind of stopped the process by. You know, at the end of the synodal or synodal, the synodality expectations were high that he would then introduce the ordination of women, or allowing the marriage of priests, or the blessing of same-sex couples, and he stopped all these things because he understood that perhaps these were over the top and didn't want to get there. So in a sense, his final year was a signal that he himself had understood that perhaps he had overstretched the process. And so what is, I think, to be expected now is a kind of rebalancing, not going back to Ratzinger's hard positions, but a more balanced Catholic tendency, less radical than Francis's, and taking advantage of the fact that the breaking point has not been reached. And so there is a time to reassess and rebalance the equilibrium.
Speaker 1:I felt, Rachel, that it was almost like Francis wanted to keep pushing, but he couldn't take the church with him and so he stopped. Is that your read?
Speaker 3:I think Lois expressed it well. It is a pendulum swinging and it feels like it did reach as far as the Roman Catholic Church could go.
Speaker 3:It's interesting that Francis has appointed a lot of the cardinals that now sit 75% or something 75% of the College of Cardinals who are of the eligible age under 80, to vote for the next Pope, to elect the next Pope, and so there's a sense that he has shaped the College of Cardinals, but I don't think there's going to be another Francis straight up. I think there's going to be just a little bit of correction.
Speaker 1:Right. I mean that is interesting that in 12 years you can appoint all the cardinals. Well, three quarters of the cardinals who will do the voting, that just seemed wow, because most papacy's are going to go at least that length of time. The guy does get effectively to choose his successor.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right, that's how the system works, and he's been very active in creating new cardinals, to the point of shaping the whole college. Having said that, there is a saying that those who enter the conclave as favorite candidates get out not having been elected as folks, and so I would be. I wouldn't miss, I would. I would be cautious in saying that the Preferred candidate by Francis will necessarily be voted in. Con clubs are unique and complex events that defy forecasts and simplistic expectations, but I agree that what is to be expected, generally speaking, is a time of pause, a time of rebalancing, a time of healing, because the Catholic Church is also very much divided. Francis has left the Church very much divided in itself and there are factions and groups that are fighting against each other, and perhaps a Pope that is willing to and capable of bringing reconciliation is something that is desirable Leonardo.
Speaker 1:he was nowhere near as strong a theologian as his predecessor, pope Benedict.
Speaker 2:He has never completed a degree in theology, never published a theology book in his lifetime before being elected as Pope. So he has been, and he was a Jesuit by definition, eclectic and defined strict and clear categories. So, theologically speaking, I think while Benedict was an Augustinian, post-vatican II ressourcement theologian, francis was a Jesuit with a very elastic and moving type of theology, depending on exercising the Jesuit discernment. That oftentimes means evaluating things without having a principled, without having a principled framework to do that, but adapting to situations and kind of feeling the wind and following the wind. And so Francis has been moving, from being taking conservative positions when he was in Argentina and then becoming more open on certain things and then changing his mind on other things. He is being a wave rather than a rock.
Speaker 1:And yet he I think people would acknowledge that he's done a good job on the issue of child sexual abuse.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're right. I mean it was in many ways that was the situation that he inherited when Pope Benedict resigned 13 years ago and he took some initiatives to address the issue, at least globally, then. Scandals have occurred even after Francis, but I think he tried to address the issue from a canonical and pastoral point of view, but not eradicating the problem, but certainly trying to deal with it.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking of the Protestant and our battle with secularism. It'll be easier for us Protestants to battle secularism if the Roman Catholic Church holds creedily against secularism rather than goes all woolly woolly. And so there's a technical theological term. But I guess it would be in the interests of Protestant faith and the preaching of a clear Christ to the world that the more conservative Pope we get, the better. Do you want to comment? Agree, disagree. I'm just flying the kite here. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's interesting that this is also the year the 1300th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea.
Speaker 1:Which we're going to get you both back on in a couple of weeks' time In person, next week, of the Council of Nicaea, which we're going to get you both back on in a couple of weeks' time In person, yeah, next week.
Speaker 3:And so that is very much a call for creedal unity. But even as we say those words together, I think we need to have a deeper think about what we mean by each of these things. What do we mean when we confess together one holy Catholic apostolic church? What do we mean when we say born of the virgin mary? Um, so I think there are great differences even in creedal unity.
Speaker 3:And um, yes, francis was more flexible, more of a pastoral pope, someone who lived closer to the people, took the concerns of the poor of the world, um in hand, but there is a Roman-ness to him that never quite left. So he wasn't a heavyweight theologian, but the one published work he had prior to becoming Pope Francis was Luther the heretic, calvin the schismatic. So there's never, it's never. Whatever Pope comes next, he will be Roman and Catholic. It is just which one of those is more emphasised and to what degree. And I think Lael's right, they will be looking for someone who is able to heal some of the schisms and divisions within the Roman Catholic Church itself, because Francis who did push it?
Speaker 3:so far. There are those within the church that would love it to look more Roman again, as it did under Ratzinger and as it was pre-Vatican II.
Speaker 1:Now, final question Lots of people I'm imagining will be watching the movie Conclave and thinking this is what's going to happen. How realistic is the movie Conclave to what's actually going to be happening in terms of the process the next couple of weeks?
Speaker 2:It is realistic in the sense that the Conclave is a meeting of 130 basically old men, and so the Conclave movie shows that these people would take pills to sleep, with the pills to after dinner and so on. So in that sense it was realistic. It was also realistic in the in depicting the so-called congregations taking place before the conclave. The first one will occur tonight to have all the cardinals discussing how to handle the funerals and then the decisions to be made before entering the Sistine Chapel. And they are.
Speaker 2:These meetings are not recorded, there's no one outside of the group, so the movie depicted that meeting, those meetings, in realistic terms. I don't think that, then, the movie is realistic in depicting the choice of the candidate, as the movie tells the story, but in some ways it is what is to be expected Having a gathering of the princes of the church most of them are old people having health issues and going through serious discussions taking place before the Conclave on what are the prospects of the church, what are the problems and who is the profile that is better suited to lead the church in the next phase.
Speaker 1:Leonardo Rachel, thanks so much for talking to us today on the Pastor's Heart. Leonardo Di Chirico on the line there from Vatican City and Rachel Ciano here with me in Sydney. Leonardo, pastor of the Church, richard Dioroma and the director of the Reformanda Institute, and Rachel lectures in Christianity and history at Sydney Missionary and Bible College and is part of the faculty at the Rome Scholars and Leaders Network. My name is Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
