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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Openness to Jesus among young people - especially young men! - with Andy Stevenson, Katie Stringer, and Dave Jensen
We are hearing reports from the university campuses, from young adult ministries, and from youth groups - that there is an increasing openness to the gospel of Jesus - and there’s a new openness among young men.
There’s a shift in the culture. There’s something happening that is different among young people - Especially among young men.
There’s a greater biblical ignorance in the rising generation. But significantly more openness.
There’s less hostility when compared to a decade ago. Walk up evangelism is easier and people are more open to discussing their views on Jesus.
And people are being saved. And young men are being saved
Andy Stephenson heads the Youth Ministry support team for Anglican Youthworks.
Dave Jensen works with Evangelism and New Churches encouraging and mobilizing churches in Evangelism and is one of the keynote speakers at the Nexus Ministry Conference on 17 March 2025.
Katie Stringer is involved in high school ministry across Sydney’s secular inner west.
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it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel and the panel today, andy stevenson, dave jensen and katie stringer. There is something going on. There's a shift in the culture. I don't want to overstate it, but something is happening that is different among young people and maybe especially among young men. What's happening? Why is it happening? The churches that are seeing more young people saved, more young men saved. What are they doing and how should the church leader respond and what are the dangers? What are the things to watch out for?
Speaker 1:We are hearing reports from university campuses, from young adult ministries and from youth groups that there is an increasing openness to the gospel of Jesus and a new openness among young men. Just let that sentence sink in. There's a greater biblical ignorance in the rising generation, but significantly more openness. There's less hostility when compared to a decade ago. Walk-up evangelism is easier and people are more open to discussing their views on Jesus and people are being saved. Young men are being saved.
Speaker 1:Andy Stevenson is with us. He heads the youth ministry support team for Anglican Youth Works. Dave Jensen is here. He works with evangelism and new churches here in Sydney, encouraging and mobilising churches in their evangelism, and he's one of the keynote speakers at the Nexus Ministry Conference being held here in Sydney in a few weeks' time, and Katie Stringer is with us. Katie is involved in schools ministry at a range of high schools in Sydney's secular inner west. We're going to start with what's going on, but, andy Stevenson, as somebody who's spent 20 years working hard in ministry to young people, I take it your pastor's heart is excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very much so. I mean I've seen many things over the 20 years or more. Now it makes me feel a bit old, but I've been very thankful and privileged to be part of what's happening in youth ministry across Sydney and beyond. But I am seeing in one sense a bit of a resurgence, particularly among young men in youth group and seeing youth groups having more boys there.
Speaker 1:Because that's not been the case, has it? It's been more girls than boys for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, generally I'm in a position where I get to visit a lot of youth groups and you know, anecdotally, two out of three have more girls than boys. But lately, in visiting youth groups and chatting to youth ministers, there's more boys around and I think that's pretty exciting. And they're not just there for the girls, despite popular belief, although some might be, but they're there because there's a bit of a hunger. They want to know what's happening, who's this Jesus guy? They want to know truth. There are big questions coming out of COVID. Spirituality is not a weird thing anymore. In fact, I don't know whether I want to say it's cool, but I want to say it's definitely on the agenda and I have three young sons and even they're talking about it, which is wild. So, yeah, and I'm seeing more and more young people become Christians, young men become Christians and being bold about their faith, and that just fires me up.
Speaker 1:Let's just go to that idea of cool David, because you were just saying to me that growing up there were only two rugby league players that were Christian, and that has changed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, certainly. Growing up in the 90s as a rugby league fan, I remember two guys, brad Mackay and Jason Stevens, who were openly public Christians. I can't think of any more. Brad Thorne maybe.
Speaker 2:Dave.
Speaker 3:Simmons, dave Simmons, but that was later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so in the 90s I remember, and Jason, I remember being mocked for being Christian.
Speaker 3:He was on the footy show. He handled it brilliantly Like it was all banter, but he had a book Born Again, virgin or something and anyway. So he would be mocked for it. But gentle banter, but not with any sort of cultural awareness of Christianity at all. On the footy show. But if you fast forward to today you will see at the end of every game a prayer circle of players. Now this has largely been influenced by the Pacific Islander community, who now make up just shy, I think, in fact maybe even over 50% of the rugby league playing community. Penrith Panthers have won the last four seasons. At the end of every game there is a prayer circle of them and their opposition kneeling down praying and that's resulted in a huge shift culturally.
Speaker 3:I've got a nephew who's in one of the NRL junior squads and it's completely normal and encouraged by his Pacific Islander coach that he would go to church. And yet I remember playing footy as a teenager and you know that was never the attitude. It was never like that. It was. Christians are weird, dags, losers, that kind of thing, whereas now, culturally speaking, that's just. It's not the case. Now that's not the same as a revival or anything like this, but certainly with that cultural move. It's meant that for young men in particular, so susceptible to peer pressure, standing up for Jesus I think has never been. It's hard for me to say, but I think it's never been easier in my lifetime anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, if I just talk here for a moment and just moving from youth to young adults, we've run an evangelistic course introducing God roughly once a term for a decade and it's either been 50-50 male and female or slightly more women. But for the first time this term we've got 70% men guests and 30% women guests, and so what are you hearing amongst young adults and evangelism courses and things like that? Yeah in preparation. You know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, and I've run courses like this for 10 years, every term as well, and in preparation for the interview, I asked a bunch of mates hey, give me your stats, what's going on?
Speaker 3:And it is over 50% of the courses would have men under the age of 35 as being making up over 50% of the people coming. Now what's interesting, though, I'd offer, is that some of them had no men. Some of them had over 50% of the people coming. Now what's interesting, though, I'd offer, is that some of them had no men, some of them had all men, and so there is patterns about what they're doing that's connecting. So it's not just as simple as hey, just open the doors and young men are going to stream in. I don't think that's the case, but I do think there is a pattern of, but I do think there is a pattern of intentional, proactive ministry that engages men and young men effectively and without the blockage that is there and we'll talk about why that is, but without that blockage, there is absolutely an openness for them to come and sit, and courses are wonderful places for them to do that, to have their questions answered, to discuss, to listen terrific things.
Speaker 1:So yeah, let's go to Katie Stringer. Katie, you're involved in lunchtime groups at schools. What's your sense of what's going on on the ground?
Speaker 4:Yeah, look for me like what Andy was saying. It's so noticeable especially. You know I've been in this space for eight years.
Speaker 1:Noticable. That's a key word.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's very noticeable. So my lunchtime groups often are filled with boys, even at co-ed schools, the people that are coming up to ask questions at the end, to request things to read. The people that we're seeing become Christian in the last couple of years has been a lot of young men, which is thrilling. I think it's a thrill when anybody finds the Lord, jesus Christ and is captivated by that and wants to give their life to Christ. But I did actually, like Dave said, go and ask people what they think. I've had conversations with I've got two teenage daughters at home and fascinatingly, their response was very similar to when I asked a class at one of my schools. I said you know, what do you think? Why is it that more of your friends are interested in Christianity than ever before? And they said this TikTok trend, which was Jim goals God, apparently it's a thing, and I just found that really fascinating. Like Dave was saying, it's no longer uncool and daggy to be a Christian.
Speaker 1:There's actually a better story there. So they're saying the three cool things are fitness, gym.
Speaker 4:Fitness gym.
Speaker 1:Being rich. Oh, no, no, no gym God goals.
Speaker 4:Oh, goals. I thought you said gold. No, gym God goals.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, well, that was a good clarification, absolutely, so just unpack those for me, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally. So I think that a lot of young people especially coming out of I obviously am not in touch with TikTok there.
Speaker 1:Well, look, neither am I.
Speaker 4:I'm having to you know go to the younger generation, to ask them.
Speaker 4:But I think that, especially coming out of COVID, I think there is a sense where people are wanting to hitch their life to a purpose. You know, I think there's always been a trend to you know, well, okay, I better look after my body. And then that second thing of well, I better look after my spirit Maybe I do need to get in touch with is there a God? Perhaps Jesus has answers that I've never encountered or interrogated before, because the reality is most young people are not growing up with a Sunday school background. So, yeah, that's a logical thing for them. And then they're out of that, out of the fruit of those two disciplines is this idea that they're going to have goals and be able to achieve them and have, you know, a life that they can be proud of.
Speaker 1:Let's go and check some stats and we'll put it up on the screen here. This is from Great Britain, from the YouGov survey, but really amazing the line. I believe there is a God. There are gods. In August 2019, it was 23% of 18 to 24-year-olds and in January, the 29th 2025, 45% of 18 to 24-year-olds. I mean, that's a kind of sit up and take notice stat, andy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I heard you say that stat before, I was thinking about COVID. Right, people coming out of COVID going. What's wrong with the world, all these things that I sort of held to know as true and my insecurities weren't as there as much. That's all been blown apart, and I think that was the first thing that came to mind when I heard you mention that stat before. People are asking, well, what is real, what is truth? Yeah, their whole worldview kind of shattered in some ways. That was my first thing, katie.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I think that that statistic is really fascinating, isn't it? Even just this last week, I had a young guy come up to me and his big, burning question that he wanted to ask he wasn't a Christian was you know, you're saying your God of the Bible has the right to decide what's right and what's wrong. I want to talk about that. I thought that was really fascinating, and I did actually ask him. I said are you asking me that question? Because you find that what's right and what's wrong is quite variable right now. And he said yes, that's what he's wanting to talk about. I think there is a sense that the morality that our culture is promoting seems like it got invented recently, and so there's a desire to perhaps go to something that has a much longer history and a much stronger foundation upon which to build a life.
Speaker 1:Okay, we'll dig into morality, because I mean I want to put up this London Times report on the screen. But the headline in the London Times just a couple of weeks ago Gen Zers on why they've turned to God it's a beautiful thing waiting for sex. They're the generation least likely to describe themselves as atheists and 62% of 18 to 24-year-olds say they're very or fairly spiritual. What's behind? I mean, david Jensen, it's beautiful waiting for sex. Gen Zers on why they've turned to God. I mean, we didn't expect to see that in the London Times.
Speaker 3:No, I think it's worth the same with the stat earlier. It's worth considering not only what's happened now but what the blockages were before, so that the number was so low before. What were the things that were going on that were making hostility, apathy, objectionability to faith so prevalent? And listen to use the social media thing. And I would argue, actually, that if we can't see the really obvious connection to even Trump's re-election, the whole range of things going on here and the instability of society, to say what's happened is the gate.
Speaker 3:I think part of potentially what's happened is the gatekeepers of information. Mainstream media have been destroyed. They are not the gatekeepers of information or influence anymore. Discredited, discredited, yeah, and that's meant the new voices that speak in will either be presenting something that is pro the gold god, whatever thing it was, or it could be strongly anti. But it has meant the conversation is no longer off the table. Our 14, 15, 16-year-olds, men and women. They're hearing conversations about transgenderism, sexuality, at a level that I don't think I'd ever considered, but they're confronted with this continually, unfiltered, and that is allowing them, I think, to begin to see hey, the water the world offers here it really is toilet water and there are other options available out there that are not just my grandmother's church or whatever, but actually there's people of influence, intelligent, thoughtful people, and so that's potentially that removing the blockage of the gatekeepers of sort of liberal influence I think has been a wonderful thing for culture, but I think it's been potentially part of the reason why we have this spiritual opportunity.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's move from the what to the why, and Dave's just started us on that. Andy, what do you want to say about why this change?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's been many things rolling around in my mind, but I think in a bit of a scattergun answer. You see that the rise of someone like Andrew Tate, who's promoted this toxic masculinity at the worst, picture, in one sense, I think that young men I've talked to young men about this and they've just looked at me and said this is wrong. And they know that it's wrong and they can't even explain why it's wrong in great detail, but they want to run away from that. They hear people like Jordan Peterson saying things that you know he's polarising in one sense, but he's saying things that other people, a lot of people, are standing up going oh, there's some truth here Making it doesn't sound like a bad idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:There's, like you know, actually we need to kind of get on with our life and take responsibility for ourselves, and you know there's some elements there that are really helpful. And I think young men are going oh, I want to actually latch onto that because I'm hearing all these debates about gender, I'm seeing the morality picture of society and just going, this is rubbish. I was talking to some young men on the weekend and they were like oh, we're just sick of talking about gender at youth group and answers to all these things. We just want to hold onto things that are real and run hard with that. And so when you look at Jesus and when the truth that he is, I think that that's very appealing and it's real and it's authentic. And you know, young people today, authenticity is the highest bar. That's what they're looking for. So I think all of that together thrown into the melting pot for young men, that's why Jesus is becoming an answer, which should be no surprise to us at all. I'm very thankful for the conversations we're having.
Speaker 1:Katie Stringer. I mean you could say a couple of years ago that every message that a young man got was you're bad, you're the danger, you're the problem, yep, and I'm looking for something where I could potentially be positive.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent. I think the reality for young men is that the story that the secular culture is giving them is no story at all. You know, they're oppressive, they're violent, they should be quiet, they shouldn't be speaking in this space, and yet the Bible is giving them fantastic role models, especially in the person of Jesus Christ. They're not stupid. They're intelligent to be able to read these stories and see how extraordinary he is, that he's unmatched. You know he is unmatched. And also, I think what is a very compelling story, especially if you aren't familiar with the Bible yet, is the story of your friend who is a Christian. And I have seen young men become Christian in schools through the power of friendship with other men and seeing you know like this is.
Speaker 4:You know what a simple bit of evangelism is this? But a guy that we knew and he was involved in some pretty dark stuff and he had a mate who was a Christian and he said to him why are you so different, I mean, or why are you so nice? And this guy, his answer was, oh, because of Jesus. He didn't have a profound answer, but simply, in saying that, it made this guy go. Okay, I might need to plug into some of the stuff that you're doing because you are so different to you know the other people that I'm hanging out with.
Speaker 4:He was in a gang. He ended up going to this guy's youth group and gave his life to Christ. Like that's incredible. So I think, yes, obviously interacting with God's word is the spiritual stuff that's going to transform people. But you know, we meet God in the word and through his people. So I think, yeah, don't discount the fact that there are some fantastic male role models out there that are actually living for Christ. Certainly, I see it in schools and it's not only, you know, courageous, but it's very compelling, it's very attractive and their friends are noticing.
Speaker 1:Dave.
Speaker 3:Katie hit on, I think, the main point, which is that for adults for kids as well, I'm sure, but my world has been abandoned to adults for 10 years over 90% of adults who become Christians as adults they've got one thing in common and it is that they know a Christian. Now, that doesn't need to be a friend, it could be a bus driver, it could be someone of any level of connection, but they know a Christian and that they would point to that Christian's implicit or explicit influence on their investigation of the greatest friend of all, jesus, and that that Christian has usually been willing to help them make that next step. Now that next step may be sitting down and reading the Bible. Usually it's not.
Speaker 3:Usually it's bringing them to a lunchtime group, a church course, whatever it is to meet other Christians, and here's the compelling part is, in the churches that I've seen and I've worked in several who see a lot of young men, one for Christ, the key thing that you notice that they're doing is they're engaging their Christian men in evangelism, and that doesn't mean everyone there is doing walk-up or door-knocking, but it means that they may be involved in the evangelistic course.
Speaker 3:They may be on a Sunday looking out for non-Christians any number of things but the non-Christian if we're talking about men, the non-Christian man it's not that they see a guy with neck tattoos and hear a hunting story up the front in a sermon. That connects with them, it's that they meet Christians. Now, that shouldn't surprise us, that we want non-Christians to meet more Christians. So what that means is that I think that big connector of going hey, if our Christian men, if we're talking about men, if our Christian men and women, though, can be bold enough to bring invitation, invite, share and to meet other Christians, then that's the way we see more and more people converted.
Speaker 3:But I'm not surprised by any of this that God has not done in Australia, he's not done saving people. People become Christians every day, and primarily through that means.
Speaker 1:So when I spoke to you two, three weeks ago you said I'll check with the mission pastors of the churches of Sydney. And then you've come back to me in the last couple of days and said some of the churches are seeing quite a few people saved, and particularly young men saved, and you even said that a couple of minutes ago but some aren't. What are the churches that are doing well in this space doing particularly?
Speaker 3:What they're doing is they're doing evangelism that works well for all people, so they're not doing nuanced like UFC church you know like, oh, we're going to do an arm wrestling competition for Jesus, like that is a huge error, that we think, oh well, I'm going to analyse culture now and I've got to become more masculine. It's not like that, it's not this surface level thing. All they're doing simply is they're doing evangelism that connects well with all people. Now, what is that? Well, there's three principles the word plus people, plus time, so that they're teaching the word in the presence of prayerful people.
Speaker 3:Over time, an evangelistic course is primarily what they're doing, but in that course, for example, they've got a team of people in that course who represent the demographic of the church, including men. And so, as Christian men bring their non-Christian friend, they're meeting other Christian men who they're sitting with and talking, and as they're exposed to more and more Christian friend, they're meeting other Christian men who they're sitting with and talking, and as they're exposed to more and more Christian people, that builds this plausibility and all this type of thing that go with it. But that works for 80-year-old women, it works for immigrants, it works for people from the subcontinent, from Middle East, anglos, but it does work for young men. If, particularly, I think, you work hard at getting the young men in your church or the people you know, yeah, I would say the young men in your church or the older men in your church involved in what your church is doing in evangelism. You must have them there.
Speaker 1:That's essential. Okay, we'll keep going on this. Katie Stringer, given what you've observed, what might you hope church leaders would do?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, just on what Dave was saying there, I think something that I have observed is I've observed people from local schools that have interacted with Christian programs bringing themselves along to church. Now I will say I haven't seen female students on their own without their families at church on a Sunday, but I have seen male students on their own without their families on a Sunday and I think that's awesome. They're choosing this for themselves. I'm assuming they've obviously told their parents and their parents are happy for them to attend. But I know there's a young man that does that in your church and we've got a couple in ours and I think-.
Speaker 1:In fact, the young man sitting behind the desk doing the video editing for us today actually was such a young man who came to church independent of his parents when he was in year nine.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. And look, isn't that the God-given nature of men? They are leaders and they're going to make decisions for themselves. And so, yeah, I find that really encouraging. And I think what is really important, especially for every young person at a church, is to find a pathway of service, because you know, god has made us to worship and serve him. So that's going to help them to feel connected and purposeful at church.
Speaker 1:Andy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're picking on stuff that I'm thinking about and involved in quite a lot. So our leaders in training camps that we run, you had a fascinating statistic on just talking about your leaders in training camp.
Speaker 1:Your attendance yeah, Just attendance of the gender change that's happened there.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, so traditionally it's had more girls than boys on camp, this year even, and a lot of the young men there saying, yeah, we're keen to be here, we're keen to invite our friends and we had the same statistic, incidentally, from Sydney Uni the campus there, I think is 57% female, 43% male and in their Meet Jesus campaign 2024, 50-50 in the responses on the gender balance.
Speaker 1:Keep going on, lit, yeah, listen.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're very much about empowering young people to be leaders now and I think that when young men are given responsibility and said you know, we'll back you, we'll support you, we'll get around you, but we want to unleash you. They're just craving it. And when they get responsibility they will take it seriously when they're left. When we look at young men and we just go oh yeah, you're a young man, you'll just be stupid, you'll just do dumb things, and we just keep letting them do that and don't give them anything to do, think about or take responsibility for. We reap what we sow. So I want to see churches continuing to empower young men, get them involved in leadership, get them involved in decision-making, get them involved in helping change the church. And, quite seriously, I believe if we get young men empowered, envisioned and on fire for Jesus, it will change the church more than any other demographic. I stand on that.
Speaker 1:Now just you mentioned I'm thinking dangers. You know you talked about danger of UFC church or something like that, but there is a danger in this cultural milieu of the Andrew Tate and things like that. What are your concerns there?
Speaker 3:I think it's more insidious than Andrew Tate. I think Andrew Tate is almost too obvious. You go. Oh, that's true. I actually think it's moralism and it's understanding the small g gospel of Peterson Rogan, these guys and realising what they're selling is wicked, it's not right and it leads people to hell. What they're selling is works-based righteousness, that there is a God, be good, work hard and you're living that way. Now that doesn't mean God will not and he has a billion times over using that as a gateway drug into the gospel.
Speaker 3:But I think our mistake would be if we don't see the difference in the true life-breathing gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ versus pro-religious moralism. And that doesn't mean we speak against those individuals in the pulpit, anything like that, but it does mean we need to be crystal clear on the gospel, what the gospel, the distinctives of the gospel, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace. Because I've noticed over the years, as these young men have come to church and evangelistic courses, often what has led them in will be the thing that blocks them. So what has led them is they want a quick fix change for their life. They want to glow up, spiritual glow up type thing. They want to be the buff, spiritual version of themselves. And the gospel is so offensive and so counter-cultural and so deeply intrinsically against being strong but rather being weak, that unless we go clearly with that, there's every chance that we sort of don't convert people because we miss what's truly going on. That's my fear around the place.
Speaker 1:What are the dangers? You see, Katie.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree with what you're saying, dave, and I think also too. I think we don't forget that the gospel message is also courageous, like it is a courageous step to choose Jesus. I don't know who chooses us, but do you know what I mean? To actually live out your faith wherever you are? As a young Christian, whether you're a man or a woman, that is a courageous step. So I think it's important to tap into the things that they're searching for, in the sense of you know, as I said before, the story that they are being given to inhabit is pathetic I think you described it as toilet water but the story of what they can do with their lives as Christian men is fantastic. So we actually do want to, I think we do want to promote that. Of course, there's going to be suffering, that's. You know. Jesus said pick up your cross. You know, carry your cross and follow me. But I think that there's a bravery in doing that as well too, and that's to be commended.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right and I think part of it is what Andy was saying about the leaders and training thing is that we want to be shaping people around eternity. So going hey, the envisioning piece is not to say to the young man, hey, we need help cleaning up after church and if you vacuum, the girls will be impressed. You can get people to vacuum by envisioning them around the eternal reality of the gospel, and saying this makes a difference.
Speaker 3:This matters more than anything else, and actually that's not a light switch. We turn on in people and then we just do it once. Rather, it's a sense of light. If we stop moving, it turns off. We need to be continually feeding that into the minds and hearts of our people.
Speaker 1:Last word, Andy Stevenson.
Speaker 2:On the dangers. It would break me and break all of us if we missed the opportunity. I think that we need to have our eyes wide open. I think we need to take hold of what's happening and really work hard with young people. Like what these guys have said, we need to be clear on the gospel, we need to be strong, we need to make sure that we're not, you know, promoting some other kind of mythical, you know, answer to society's kind of culture, but we need to sort of keep showing them Jesus clearly. But we need to also just get alongside them.
Speaker 2:And if we don't do that, if we just keep ignoring what's happening or trying to do other things that aren't helping young people, and particularly in this case young men I mean young women as well. I'm a big fan of saying help young people, get more involved, and that will help lead the church for change now and in the future, of course. But yeah, we're seeing something special in one sense and I think the big danger for me is if we miss. Yeah, we're seeing something special in one sense and I think, if the big danger for me is we miss it, we're going to miss a lot more.
Speaker 1:Andy Stevenson. He heads the youth ministry support team for Anglican Youth Works. Katie Stringer has been with us. She's involved in schools ministry in a range of high schools across Sydney's inner west. And Dave Jensen works with evangelism and new churches, encouraging and mobilising churches in evangel West. And Dave Jensen works with evangelism and new churches, encouraging and mobilising churches in evangelism, and will be a keynote speaker at the Nexus Conference being held in Sydney in a couple of weeks' time. And if you're around the Sydney region and haven't yet registered, well you know what to do. My name's Dominic Steele. Thanks for being with us on the Pastor's Heart. We will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
