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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on Facebook then available in video on our website <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">http://www.thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Craig Hamilton: Exploding pastoral leadership myths!
What happens when a leader operates without a clear vision. And how poetic or concrete should a vision be?
How to organise things so the overall vision cascades down through every area of church life?
What should our pastoral approach be to innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, laggards and the nos.
Biblical vision and Leadership vision: What is the difference? Why do people mangle Proverbs 29:18?
Plus infusing the church with vision, in a significant moment and especially via drip feed.
Craig Hamilton is senior pastor of Pitt Town Anglican Church and author of ‘Wisdom in Leadership.’
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it is the pastor's heart. My name is dominic steel and today, five leadership myths and misconceptions about how churches work, plus. Biblical vision versus leadership vision what's the difference and why do people mangle proverbs 29, 18? What happens when a leader operates without a clear vision, and how poetic or concrete should that vision be? And how to organize things in your church so that the big overall vision cascades down through every area of church life, plus pastoral approaches to the innovators, the early adopters, the early majority, the late majority, the laggards and the no's. Craig Hamilton is with us. He's the senior pastor of Pitttown Anglican Church in the northwest of Sydney and well, at least one of the books on the shelf behind him is Wisdom in Leadership that Craig authored. Craig, four years now as a senior minister, you've written lots about leadership before becoming a senior minister, and so I'm just imagining it's been all completely smooth sailing for you.
Speaker 2:Dominic hello, thank you, nice to be in the new studio, great to have you. Yes, I think what I've learned is the things that I used to think. I still think, and I think them even more and even stronger now that I'm a senior pastor. I think what I've found is that being a senior leader has in some ways been easier than being an assistant minister, in terms of the mechanics of the thing. I think it's easier.
Speaker 2:I've said for a long time, you know, often things break in the middle. That's where there's a lot of pressure, a lot of talk like a lot of twisting. It's hard, and I think it's also true, of course, a lot of talk like a lot of twisting. It's hard, and I think it's also true. Of course, you know the fish rots from the head, so that's true too. But I think the mechanics are easier as a senior pastor than being an assistant minister.
Speaker 2:I think what's harder is there is no cavalry, the buck stops with you. That's harder is there is no cavalry, the buck stops with you. That's harder. And I think being a senior pastor, you are more exposed. I think this is what I've observed. You know, I spent time talking to senior pastors, as you know over the last 10 years or so and I think what I've seen is that when the person has skipped something that they maybe should have learned earlier as a team leader maybe because they were charismatic or they were a good talker or good with people they could overcome it. But when you become the senior leader, those things that you have overlooked earlier they are exposed.
Speaker 2:That's what I think I've noticed. What did you overlooked? Many things. I'm not good at everything. There were aspects I think even of just how to run a team that I was sloppy on, that was exposed in this kind of senior pastor role that I needed to just sharpen and be, like, more consistent. I think I'm pretty good at being a consistent person, but there was still more. There was more room to grow.
Speaker 1:Okay, Myth number one the pastor needs to be involved in everything.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is classic, right, you go to every, any church, I would say most churches and most people will think the pastor needs to be involved in everything, probably because we're so respected and loved and appreciated and people want and value what we think, and so the pastor, he, should be involved in this, whether it's a senior pastor or anyone else. You know, she, she, she should be involved, he should be involved, and it's. It's just not true. It's just not true. You know the churches where they ask the pastor what flowers he likes and he says I don't know, I like birds of paradise.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just think for myself. Yesterday I had a conversation with a guy who was bringing two friends to our Introducing God course last night and I was praying with him about these friends that he was bringing and he said see you tonight. And I said, oh, no, no, no, I won't be there. In fact, they watch a video of the talk by me. It would be really weird for me to be sitting in the room when there's a video of a talk by me. It would be really weird for me to be sitting in the room when there's a video on yeah. But I thought, oh, that's interesting. You've been at our church for I don't know 10 years. We've been running Introducing God pretty much every Monday night during school term for 10 years and you'd assumed I'd been at them all. Yeah, because it was his first time bringing a guest. Yeah, whereas that's been a ministry that's been delegated for all that time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:How good on you. But you know it feels like the pastor shows his value by being there, that he values the thing by being there, but that's not helpful or always true.
Speaker 1:Myth number two the leadership team should never push back on the leader once he's shared his opinion on something.
Speaker 2:This is very difficult. You know, the senior leader's voice is so heavy and if I've said what I think, well, that's what the pastor thinks, that's what we should do. But again, that is. It's not helpful. I'm not always right.
Speaker 1:I mean, I take it well. I presume you like me. I hold my view when I'm in that kind of meeting and till towards the end of the discussion.
Speaker 2:When I'm at my best, I hold it till the end. Sometimes I'm not at my best and I might slip out early, Right okay, how's it worked well when they've pushed back on you. When it's worked well, they'll say you know, Craig, I have a different. What if we did this instead? And again, when I'm at my best, I'll say thank you, Tell me more about that, I'd like to hear more. When I'm at my worst, I will say just no, and that's not helpful. It's not good for them. It's not good for them.
Speaker 1:It's not good for me and you've actually got to. You do yourself damage as a leader there because you've yeah, I've shut them down.
Speaker 2:I've not allowed them to speak into a thing, and often the people in my teams are very clever and their thoughts are very good and I should listen to them. You know what I mean, yeah.
Speaker 1:So tell us a moment.
Speaker 2:Oh, there are so many. They happen all the time. Dominic, Come on, it's just us. My team may watch this video. I mean they were there, they'll know, it's just, you know, if I am tired or things have not gone well or it's a choice I'm a bit afraid of often, I will compensate by presenting more certain than I really am.
Speaker 1:So where have we come up with a better decision as a team that you didn't bring or that you initially disagreed with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean these things again. They happen all the time. My ideas are not always good or my team is good at saying that's a good idea. What if we tweaked it like this and did this? And then it's like, oh, that's actually that's way, that's way good, we should definitely do that.
Speaker 2:Last night I was at my wardens and elders meeting and we were talking about some things that we need to plan as a church and we were going to do this thing and that would have been good. But then one of the wardens said what if we included that item that we were going to move away from in this other space and then we can have all the things that we want to have? It was just a very elegant solution that I hadn't thought of and no one else had thought of. And he just paused us and said what if we did this? And I think I was doing well, because it was immediately obvious that was a good idea and I said that's a great idea, we should definitely do that. Someone write that down so we don't forget. So it happens all the time.
Speaker 1:Myth number three the pastor needs to care in close proximity for every person in the church. Yeah, Wouldn't that be good.
Speaker 2:If that was true, I would love to care for every person in my church, in close proximity, go to their houses, be with them, be best friends with them. I would like that. I'm not sure everyone in my be best friends with them. I would like that. I'm not sure everyone in my church would like that, but I would like that. But it's just not possible. My church is not a big church, but I still couldn't be best friends with every person in my church and care for them and be the one that they can talk through all their problems with for hours at length. There's not enough time. I can't be that person, but I think perhaps you're similar. I would like to, because I care about these people and normally, if I care about you, I spend time with you and I am that person. However, when there's 100 of us or 50 of us or 200 of us, I'm only one person.
Speaker 1:So people, I mean, you hear this line around that it's the church that does that, that is, if you like, the authentically organically beautiful one, where the church, where actually love is organized, that's criticized. Yes, so how do you want us to organize love?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, my job, I think, is to care about every person, and what that looks like is I care that they're being cared for, so I don't have to be the one who cares for them. I couldn't possibly but how we organize that? Are we going to do it through a growth group network? Are we going to do it through a network of one-to-ones, whatever? Horses for courses, but so long as people are being cared for, that's the objective.
Speaker 1:Myth number four the church shouldn't stop doing anything.
Speaker 2:We all know these churches where there's a million, a hundred million ministries.
Speaker 1:But I mean they're not churches out there, it's us. I mean we struggle to actually say actually I don't think this thing is working anymore because we know that there are people who are invested in it and it's going to be awkward conversations, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's it. It's not that we don't know that it's not being as effective as it could be or that it's had its time and wasn't it great and everything has a life cycle. It's not that we don't know that, it's that we're afraid, I'm afraid, you know, to have those kind of conversations and talk to people and and maybe hurt someone's feelings, because I don't want to do those, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but it's, it's not. We can't have 50 ministries, 40 of them, that are run by Betsy and you know, the ministry to potted plants was one time valuable, but it's it's time is done, and so we got to have those kinds of conversations. Hard, hard conversations.
Speaker 1:Where have you had that conversation?
Speaker 2:Oh, again, so many. There's one of the one of the privileges, I think, of arriving in a church during COVID was that everything had to be shut down and it wasn't. I didn't have to do it, so that was a bit of a privilege, but even still, there were things at our church that were good, that used to happen, that were good things, but that we needed to stop. There was, you know, a secondhand kind of clothing outlet thing that we ran and there was a cafe that we ran, and they were good things At the time they were, they made sense, but they didn't make sense anymore and we didn't have the resources to run them. Well, to do this and that, that's right. So we had to make some choices. What did we want to do? And so we chose to stop doing some of those things Now.
Speaker 1:No one should ever leave a church, myth number five. And I guess we're not talking about the person who leaves to go into full-time Christian ministry and needs to move for theological study or whatever. But there's sometimes people who stay in the suburb and leave your church and you're saying that's not always bad, Not always bad.
Speaker 2:Yes, sometimes people are just it's not for them the way the preacher preaches or the clothes he wears, they just can't do it, or the style of service they just can't do do. And maybe it's they're immature and maybe it doesn't really matter they, they'd be happier, fruitful, effective somewhere else. Perhaps it's that they're not on board with our vision. They're not interested in kind of what we're trying to do. Maybe they have a different thought. That is not bad, it's just different. And it would be they'd be happier and more effective if they went to the church down the road. Who does those kinds of things? Because my church can't do everything, your church can't do everything. There are good things I'm sure you don't do, there's good things that we don't do, and so, being in a team your church, my church, it's one team Maybe the person can join your team to do a thing that you do that we don't do Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1:Now you talk about vision and lots of people talk about vision, and one of the things I've just picked up from you recently is the rightness of different people expressing vision completely differently. And as I first heard this from you, I was thinking. My friend Toby Neal talks about the vision for his church is to have more people at Vine Church than at the Beresford Hotel next door, and there's a poetry to that vision yeah.
Speaker 1:And when you look at our one, which is glorify God by seeing Ann and Alan surrounds growing as disciples of Jesus, I mean it's a more concrete kind of, but it doesn't have the poetry of more than at the pub. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is right. They're both right. They're both right, they're both good. My view is vision is a picture of the preferred future something like that.
Speaker 2:What are we trying to? Where are we headed? What are we trying to do? What would it look like if we achieved it? Something like that, and so sometimes that can look like a bit poetic. More people here than at the pub that's captivating. But there are other visions, like we want to see 100 healthy churches by 2030. It's not very poetic, but it's very clear, clear, very concrete. I know exactly what you're trying to do, but I know what Toby's trying to do too. I can capture that as well. So I think they're just different. Some of us are a bit more poetic, some of us are a bit more concrete and specific and engineering.
Speaker 2:It takes all sorts, but both of them are clear pictures of the preferred future that we're working towards.
Speaker 1:Why does it have to come out of the heart of the senior pastor?
Speaker 2:I think it has to come out of it. Well, maybe it doesn't have to, maybe it doesn't have to. Not all of us are strong in being able to have that clear picture of the preferred future and for some of us maybe, who struggle with that side of things, we're more in the lives of the people and you know that's where we're heading is just, it's hard for us. That's fine, but there are people around us who can help us and shape us and ask us the questions and prod us, and maybe they'll say you know what? Maybe it's just about reaching all of Annandale with the news of Jesus. And you'll say you know what? That's exactly right. It seems so obvious, but I couldn't think of it myself. But what you said is totally right and in that sense then, it is from my heart, but it came via you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe I said it wrongly in terms of came from the heart, but it's got to be something the senior pastor can enthusiastically totally embrace.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and that's because that's the job of the leader. I'm leading us into this preferred future, for better or worse, doing my best, but that's my job and so it needs to. I need to be as gripped by it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I'm leading us and you're the one who's got to just kind of be constantly saying in the team meetings and this is where you're going in terms of vision is not just the one-off announcement from the front, it's a drip feed thing.
Speaker 2:Talk to me about that. Yes, the vision casting is very important. You know the big spiel where we lay it all out and tell the stories and try and inspire and enthuse people. Very important, the vision cast, but that's just the one-off, the big kind of fire hose. There's only so much people can drink out of that. Then the rest of the year it's just the constant dripping Conversations, meetings, small group all the time. It just needs to be dripping out of me and dripping into us all.
Speaker 1:And how do you do it? Having vision cascade down through the different layers of leadership in the church? Yeah, Because, I'm suspicious that we're clear at the senior minister level. We're clear at the staff level. We're a little bit wonky and we move down at the next level to kind of we're just slipping into, we're just doing the task, rather than actually working towards the vision. Right, maybe we're the only one like that?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. Things break in the middle, right, maybe we're the only one like that? I don't think so. Things break in the middle.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is so can you fix the middle for me?
Speaker 2:I'll have a go. If my vision is clear, at the top we're reaching Annandale with the message of Jesus and the surrounding areas or whatever, and then that needs to then get translated by the people in the next layer underneath me. What does that look like in kids' ministry? What does that look like in small groups?
Speaker 1:We're there on that. We've got glorify God by seeing Annandale kids growing as disciples of Jesus. Right yeah, Annandale youth growing as disciples of Jesus yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:And then the next group are implementing that. And so it's those you might call them area leaders or the ministry people who are responsible for that area. It's their job to make sure they're dripping it, they're casting it in their translated youth ministry kind of way, or community group Bible study leaders yeah, that the reason why this exists is to help us reach Annandale for the lost or whatever. Yeah, but it's their job to do that so that those people understand they're not just doing a task but they are achieving this.
Speaker 2:We're working towards this preferred future, because what's important about that is tasks can get boring or I can get easily discouraged doing my task. We all know this. When you do a task and you don't know why you're doing it, I get pretty jack of it pretty quickly. But if I know the vision, the picture of the preferred future that we're working towards, I can do this task for a lot longer and weather all kinds of storms. So if we can help our leaders capture that vision and know what their task, how it connects, connect those dots for them, then they're much more likely to continue, even when it gets really hard or even when it gets a bit monotonous or a bit same same.
Speaker 1:We had a great moment at uh, dinner after church, dinner after evening church and, uh, one of the people said thank you to one of the people who was cooking dinner. Um, thank you for cooking dinner for us. And uh, she was a bit annoyed that she'd been thanked for cooking dinner because she would have preferred to have been thanked for building community right, because dinner was a bit annoyed that she'd been thanked for cooking dinner because she would have preferred to have been thanked for building community Right, because dinner was a means to an end, whereas actually what she was doing this for was the vision of building community, which was part of growing disciples.
Speaker 2:Well, how brilliant Isn't that exactly right. That leader understands the vision of what she's doing beyond just the task. Yeah, how brilliant. That's really great. Which?
Speaker 1:he's doing beyond just the task. Yeah, how brilliant. That's really great. Now, proverbs 29.18 is often quoted in these kind of discussions, but mangled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, yep, do you want?
Speaker 1:to read us the verse, just in case. I mean in the NIV Proverbs, 29.18,. Without revelation people run wild. But one who follows divine instruction will be happy. But I mean in the King James Version without vision, the people perish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and wouldn't it be nice if what it meant was the picture of the preferred future that we're working towards, all of Annandale knowing Jesus, growing his disciples of. Jesus. Wouldn't that be good? But it doesn't. It means revelation, it means God's word, the words from the Lord.
Speaker 1:Without God's word, without the word of God, people run wild Right. So you mean every leader who has used it to justify their vision talk should wash their mouth out with soap.
Speaker 2:They may have made a mistake. Yes, they may they have. They have. Yeah, vision is still good, even though Proverbs doesn't, you can't get it from Proverbs 29. Yeah, but it's still a good idea, even though it's not what Proverbs is talking about.
Speaker 1:The more complex the organization, the more we need vision.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so. Yes, when, if, if vision is the picture of the preferred future, then that's normal. This is one of the things that I think is very important. Vision is not special or unique or fancy. We all do it all the time. The vision is after this, I'm driving back home and I'm going to lead my staff meeting. That's not a very compelling vision, but that's the picture of the future that I am walking into. But I don't need to share that with you or anybody, because that only really affects me. But when that vision of the preferred future starts to impact other people, then the more I need to communicate it so we can interlock with each other and we can be all moving in the same direction and not subtly moving out into different spheres. So the more people who are involved in the vision, the more it needs to be communicated and the more I guess, just thinking ahead, that I need to do Right.
Speaker 2:Whereas, yeah, I'm just going to hop in the car and drive there's not much thinking that needs to be done or on the way home, I'll get some milk. But what I might do is, if the vision for the future is on the way home, I'm going to get some milk. I might tell my wife that because A it would be a caring thing to do. She's expecting me at a certain time, but she may say, oh, that's great. That interlocks with my vision, because while you're there, can you get some flour, because we're going to cook this, you know, blah, blah, blah. So the more I can communicate it, it then interlocks with other people and then more things can happen.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about getting people on board with the vision, the vision of the church, or even just the vision of getting people to come on the church weekend away. Do you know, um, how's it going to play out, and who are the different people that I'm going to have to think of in this process?
Speaker 2:there's certainly people who are already on board. They love the idea and even before you've said it yeah, because it's your idea, or they love this church or whatever. There's people who will be like. I'm not sure. Maybe.
Speaker 1:What percentage are the first? Give us some percentage, let's say it's thirds.
Speaker 2:Let's just say rule of thirds to begin with. A third will say yes, a third will say not sure about this. A third will say not sure about this. A third will say I don't think so. No, and the intuitive thing to do is to spend our time on the people who are saying no. Well, that's my intuitive thing, cause I want to convince them. I can let me at them, but that's actually wrong. The. The place to put your energy is the people who are already very keen, the yeses, and put our effort there and that will drag some of the maybes over and maybe even will bring some of the no's in, but there's going to be some no's that are going to be no's forever. I think I've learned that I'm not trying to convince people who are unconvinced, because then it just becomes a fight and it's I'm right and you're wrong, and then you'll say no, I'm right, you're wrong, the weekend won't be good, and I'll say the weekend will be good, and then we're just going to fight with each other. I'm going to convince the people who are already convinced and then the people will kind of drag over.
Speaker 2:This is a big part of research that was done a long time ago called the diffusion of innovation. It's a guy called Everett Rogers. We've got a graphic. Yes, innovators early adopters.
Speaker 1:We'll break it down from the thirds into the subcategories. So what's the difference between an innovator and an early adopter?
Speaker 2:Innovators are very rare. These are kind of 2.5%. They reckon of a normal kind of bell curve. These are the big idea people. These are the Steve Jobses. These are the ones who make up the idea. The new idea people. These are the Steve Jobses. These are the ones who make up the idea, the new idea. And then there's the next group 13.5%. These are the early adopters. People who love it because it's new will buy the iPhone the day it comes out, will see the movie at the midnight screening. They just love the new thing because it's new. Not because it's good, but because it's new. They love that stuff. Are you that person? In certain things I can be that person. I love the new thing because it's new. When I go to the shops, if there's a flag that says this is a new flavour of chips or a new flavour of chocolate, that's my kryptonite. I have to buy it. So that's me.
Speaker 1:I mean you read more books than anyone I know um that would fit into that part of your personality, you're always looking for the new idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah, I am voraciously, ferociously looking for new things that I don't know, or new aspects of things, early adopters. But then you have the kind of the bulk, the middle, the 68%, I think, of the majority early, majority late. That's the big chunk and then the last lot is the last 16%. They're the laggards. They may never get on board. They're like your mum who only buys an iPhone when she absolutely has to, when the Nokia 5110, you know breaks. So that's kind of your standard sort of distribution.
Speaker 1:But it's not just about personality. Sometimes it's going to be about the issue, isn't it? Yes, I'm thinking about some people, as we're promoting our church weekend away. It's not just about personality. Sometimes it's going to be about the issue, isn't it? Yes, I'm thinking about some people, as we're promoting our church weekend away, who are definitely in the no category and yet in other areas of their life they're early adopters, right, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so it depends on the issue, depends on the person, depends on lots of things, right, but you've got that kind of group. But then what happened was what people began to realize is it's not a smooth process just working through these things. There's a guy called Jeffrey Moore who wrote a book called Crossing the Chasm, Because what he realized was between the early adopters and the majority, between the early adopters and the majority, moving through that group is actually very hard and there's a chasm there that needs to be jumped and it doesn't just happen. What they found was so these are in books, like you know Malcolm Gladwell, tipping Point, simon Sinek, start With why. They all kind of say the same thing Jeffrey Moore, crossing the chasm that if you don't do anything, you just sort of do your normal thing, you might tap out at about 10% of the group and you won't get any further because there's a chasm there. What you need is between about 15% to 18% of people to be on board and then that's when you hit the tipping point and then the thing kind of takes off.
Speaker 2:But to get to 15% to 18% is quite hard and what you need in those early moments is the vision, the why, the early adopter types. They need the why. Why are we doing this? Less so the what and the how, but they need the why. Why is this valuable? Why are we doing this? And then those other things will come the what and the how. But the rest of the majority need to see someone else doing it. So I need to see the early adopter doing it and then maybe I'll do it, but it's less for me about why and it's more just seeing what other people are doing. So it's very, it's very. It's not intuitive that stuff. You think if I just tell people it's on, they'll come. Or if I just tell them why they should come, everyone will come. But it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1:My guest on the Pastor's Heart, craig Hamilton. He is the senior pastor at Pitttown Anglican Church and the author of Wisdom and Leadership and a stack of other books. My name's Dominic Steele. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
