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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on Facebook then available in video on our website <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">http://www.thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Indigenous Australians and the Christian Gospel - with Michael Duckett
Indigenous Australians and the Christian Gospel - with Michael Duckett
As we approach ‘Aboriginal Sunday’ (19 January) we focus on the progress of the gospel among the indigenous in Australia.
What are the cultural changes and what openness to Jesus Christ among Indigenous Australians?
Where are we seeing growth? What are the roadblocks and opportunities for the growth of the gospel among the indigenous communities? How much has to do with the soil. How much has to do with things that we can change?
Michael Duckett leads the Anglican Indigenous Ministry at Macarthur/Campbelltown in the far south west of Sydney and Chairs the Sydney Anglican Indigenous Ministry Committee.
Aboriginal Sunday
In 1938 the aboriginal leader William Cooper called on the churches of Australia to mark what he called ‘Aborigines Sunday’ on the Sunday before Australia Day. He ‘requested sermons be preached on this day dealing with the Aboriginal people and their need of the gospel and response to it and we ask that special prayer be invoked for all missionary and other effort for the uplift of the dark people.’
The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is an excellent website and app platform built specifically for churches.
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It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And today we are talking Indigenous Australians and the Christian Gospel with Michael Duckett. This coming Sunday is Aboriginal Sunday, that's the Sunday before Australia Day, the 26th of January. We're going to talk about that, but especially the progress of the gospel among the Indigenous. Well, particularly here in Sydney, what are the cultural changes, cultural issues, what is the openness to Jesus Christ among I'll start again, it is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And today we are talking Indigenous Australians and the Christian gospel with Michael Duckett. This coming Sunday is Aboriginal Sunday, that's the Sunday before Australia Day, the 26th of January. We'll talk about that, but especially we're talking the progress of the gospel among the Indigenous in Sydney, but also across Australia. What are the cultural issues? What is the openness to Jesus Christ among Indigenous Australians? Where are we seeing growth? What are the roadblocks and opportunities for the growth of the gospel among the Indigenous communities? How much does it have to do with the soil and how much does it have to do with things that we can change?
Speaker 1:Michael Duckett is our guest. He leads the Anglican Indigenous Ministry in the MacArthur Campbelltown area of Sydney, in the far southwest of our city. Michael, thanks for coming in your pastor's heart. Let's talk your pastor's heart first for Aboriginal Sunday, and maybe we could start with the story of one of my heroes, and I take it one of your heroes, william Cowper.
Speaker 2:William. Well, my pastor's heart is driven by the love of God and it drives me every day.
Speaker 2:And my desire is to see all men reconciled to God. That's my drive, expressed through a whole range of areas. But for those who have gone before, like you said, I recognise that God has been working in this country before colonisation and then through great men and women over generations and generations, and I bear the fruits of that today, because I don't. He wasn't allowed to go in shops, he had a poor treatment, but he still stood up for the love of God to share the good news of Jesus in a hard time where he wasn't really valued or accepted a lot, but he still loved to bless and serve all people.
Speaker 2:So I'm very challenged by the example set to love all people, regardless of their colour, their denomination. We don't get caught up on that, it's just all people. You've got a heartbeat. God has a plan for you and a message.
Speaker 1:Tell me about him, William Cowper.
Speaker 2:Well, he was a man who apparently was a great preacher. He was one of the key instigators for a lot of activity of Aboriginal movements in regards to especially Christian movements. He had input into the development of NAIDOC for our community. So God arose a man like Aldo to stand up and to be a voice of God's love.
Speaker 2:We had a time when it wasn't very well received in a society, but our people responded to it and he's been a valued influence in our Aboriginal environment ever since he's been highly respected amongst the wider Aboriginal community.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, but particularly amongst the Christian Aboriginal community.
Speaker 2:Yes, and sometimes that's forgotten. What drove him was the love of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I sometimes read, and his Christian story is almost whitewashed out of yes. That makes me annoyed. Does it make?
Speaker 2:you annoyed? Yeah, because they just take on all the other stuff that they prefer.
Speaker 1:And read that back in.
Speaker 2:Yes, but the gist of his heartbeat was. The love of God compelled him and he never shied away from that. But later accounts will sometimes disregard his heartbeat and just look at what he was able to achieve and what he did, but not about the heartbeat that drove him to do those things, just take me into that heart.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm always humbled when I think of an old uncle who had limitations where he could go publicly. He was restricted. He couldn't stay in motels, hotels because they wouldn't let Aboriginal people sleep in such places. So he was at the gist of experiencing racism, segregation. That was his life. Yet God opened doors for him to go over those boundaries and I can only say it was God who did that and he had an amazing influence because God chose this man to be his vessel, vessel to walk across lines that Aboriginal people could not walk past.
Speaker 2:That amazes me, that. God opened those doors so that he would have an impact not just in the Aboriginal community, but throughout all communities.
Speaker 1:And he was the one who originally got people thinking about this Aborigines Sunday. I mean it then kind of died off and has been resurrected more recently. Yes, now you were telling me it's Aborigines Sunday every week at your church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it has in the last few years been reignited and it's great. You know, it's a practice that was encouraged in the church, wider church, and now it's being revitalised, I guess, and that's good, because all it does is encourage our nation to maybe have a bit more consideration, a bit more awareness of the desperate place that many of our people find today.
Speaker 1:So what would you like me to do at our church and what would you like to say to our church, for example, on Aboriginal Sunday?
Speaker 2:I think I would say you don't have to do anything. That's my first point, because once you start saying, oh, we should be doing this and doing that, then people often react to that. But I would say, if God… it stirs your heart to think, you know what we could recognise this day in support of ministry to Indigenous people in this land, to be educating, to be part of that journey. If you're not learning, then you won't be aware of anything about the plight of Aboriginal people in this land. And as God's people, I believe we should be sensitive to all the needs of all people, you know.
Speaker 2:We have a large number of immigrants in this country. They have a heartbeat.
Speaker 2:They still need to be loved and hear the name of Jesus, as do Indigenous people of this land. So it's not either or. I just think, if we get the opportunity to embrace our support, encourage the ministry of God's word into these different groups, I think I'm all for it. And so Aboriginal Sunday for me. If that stirs people to think you know what, let us spend some time praying. It costs them nothing. Spend some time praying sharing information about the situation of people at this time. Wow, let's be specifically praying about these things the need of ministry amongst Aboriginal people throughout this country ministry here in Sydney, one of the largest populations in Australia. Country ministry here in Sydney, one of the largest populations in Australia, so that God may hear the prayers of his people and respond accordingly, as he feels fit.
Speaker 1:So what is the state of play of the ministry of Jesus amongst Indigenous people in Sydney at the moment?
Speaker 2:Sydney is a melting pot of everybody. It's such a diverse cultural melting pot and, as I said, sydney's got the highest population of Aboriginal people in this country and from all over Australia, which then can bring conflicts because it's not natural to have all tribes of all people living in the one place and squashed together as the fruits of the Stalin generation, putting our people on missions reserves that's not natural, which can cause a conflict often because of the different lands, different tribes, different languages, different protocols.
Speaker 1:So here in Sydney we've got such a… so I kind of float above all… I don't even notice any of that, but you're deeply aware of it.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yes, because we're tribal people and we know where we come from generally and our lands, we know our ties to our land, where we come from, and when you're living on a different land, it changes the whole perspective of how you relate to your neighbour from a different land.
Speaker 1:So how does it work for you? Because there's ties to the north coast Wollongong and they're in the southwest. Do you know? Yes, yes, how do you fit in, Do you know?
Speaker 2:Yes, I fit in with. I walk with respect on all land I go on. So my land's up on the north coast of New South Wales, so I'm a foreigner here. It's not my traditional lands. I have no, if I can say, rights, and rights means obligations to care for the. You know traditional ties, traditional responsibilities. So I walk on this land here with respect for those who are custodians of this land.
Speaker 2:When I gather with other Aboriginal people I'm always mindful I'll share where I come from, because that's a greeting. I'm a Dungaree man, that's a standard connection with somebody else. So when they tell me their tribe, then I get a connection of okay, how do I relate to this person according to where they come from, out of respect. And then when I get the opportunity to share, I'll share wholeheartedly what God has put on my heart. But I always start off with respect, recognition of the land. Sometimes we'll have acknowledgements of country. Welcome to countries where the traditional people say you are welcome to come onto this land, you are welcome to talk, to share. So if I go to different lands I always seek permission, you know, to sort of go into there to seek permission before I talk.
Speaker 1:Do you send an email or something like?
Speaker 2:that, oh, I ring up whoever's local there or I'll see them. It's just out of respect, especially the old people. I always try to connect with them as you talk about these different tribes.
Speaker 1:has the gospel penetrated those different tribes differently? Oh yeah, look, definitely you talk about these different tribes.
Speaker 2:Has the gospel penetrated those different tribes differently? Oh yeah, look, definitely, because the core message of jesus, death and resurrection, it never changes.
Speaker 1:But how it's shared, which I wasn't meaning about how the presentation of the gospel is. I'm just really thinking about, like, could you say, among this tribe we've seen I don't know 30% of people become Christian, whereas among this tribe we've only seen like 2% of people come to Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it's ever been sort of calculated or assessed, because the spread of the gospel in our community is like water it impacts wherever it goes and you'll see poolings of it.
Speaker 2:but you can't measure it so it's really difficult to. But over time, throughout all of our different communities in Australia, I've seen the hand of God expressed to many communities and some opened arms to it. Others were more resistant and that's why a ministry in Indigenous circles is a challenge. But if it's driven by a heart of love, of grace, compassion, I've always seen that as being not always received but always appreciated. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because we're spiritual people, we're very mindful not to disrespect.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So, regardless of denomination, regardless of religion, our people are generally very respectful.
Speaker 1:So I mean you've just made a generalisation about spiritual people and I mean you probably make a generalisation about white Australia at the moment, it's quite a secular people. Yes, what other generalisations could you make that well, maybe not being true in every specific case about the Indigenous community of Australia. You know, in terms of openness, closeness to the gospel, in terms of, yeah, just how Indigenous people think differently to white Australians.
Speaker 2:Oh yes. So this is from my perspective. I know that the large majority of Indigenous people in this land. They will always share whatever they have. Generally, it's just you turn up in different communities. What they have, they will openly share.
Speaker 1:A more communal mindset.
Speaker 2:Very much so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's yours is mine.
Speaker 2:And that's a traditional mindset of caring for your neighbour, showing respect and also never having more than you need. So when you're hunting and you're getting a few kangaroos, you make sure you only get enough to feed who's there. That's a mindset of the old people, but it still continues that you know you can have nothing and I know many Aboriginal people give what little they have to somebody else. If they've got their last $20 in their pocket, many of them will just say you need it more than me. Take it.
Speaker 1:Now, if you were coaching me on how to have a gospel conversation with just an Indigenous guy that I meet down the street, how would you encourage me to think differently about that gospel conversation to if I was talking to a white fella?
Speaker 2:The key to communication for Indigenous people is it's relationship. It's relational driven, it's not information driven. Now, that's the key difference I think Too often I'll see in the Western world they're so driven by download about Jesus and I'm not sure for my people. They want to know about the relationship they can have with Jesus, not just a download of information so you can tell them all about the great things Jesus has done. And that's great. But if you're going to talk about a relationship, my people want to know well, how does Jesus relate to me? How does our relationship with Jesus change my life? That's what really matters. It's not the information of what he has done. It's what he will do in your life. How does he want to relate to you today? He wants to bring hope and peace to your life. He wants to bring salvation into your life not a theological explanation of.
Speaker 1:How did it work for you? Because, I mean, you grew up not Christian and then there was a pivotal moment when you heard about Jesus being spat on that made a big difference for you, I think, for me.
Speaker 2:I didn't have much knowledge about God. I went to a youth group, a Baptist one, and I seen a fellow who ran it strange fellow, but he always turned up every Friday faithfully. And I saw a man. He loved us, even though we didn't show much respect to him or any, actually very little respect. We stole his car. It wasn't very good for him, but he kept coming back and I didn't understand that. And then when I heard the preaching from a preacher, he was pretty boring but God speaks through his word definitely.
Speaker 2:I heard God speak to me about the sacrifice of his son, who was beaten beyond any man. He was marred beyond any man and God opened my eyes to the reality of what God had done for me. And when his son was spat upon and I was being spat upon, I thought, wow, that does not make sense, the son of God, who was part of creation and created heavens and earth, will be humiliated for me.
Speaker 2:And from that point on I said if he can be spat upon for me, I'll serve him the rest of my life. And I haven't turned back since because I had an encounter with a living God who revealed to me his love, and I've never turned back and what was right was a relationship, he said.
Speaker 1:I love you so much, I want you to come in a relationship with me and that's what I seek to share with all people that God's love wasn't just a word. It was an action through his son and that he wants all men to come unto him so that they can walk with him, they can have a relationship with him.
Speaker 2:And that's what really matters for a lot of my people that God isn't just a white man's God, it's actually the God of all people. He says I love you so much, I demonstrate it through my son so that you may be brought back into relationship through the love, the forgiveness of our sins through Christ.
Speaker 2:I and the Christ. It's sort of simple, but what it drives is driven by a heart of love and that's what resonates with all people groups throughout the world. You come with a heartbeat that says I just come to share the love of God. People see that and they will hear that before they hear your words, because they'll sense that you have a love.
Speaker 1:Now we've got four or five intentionally Indigenous congregations in Sydney, so let's just go through them and talk about what's going on at those different churches. So let's start with your one at MacArthur.
Speaker 2:So we've been going on. Now I don't know it's my 17th year. It's been going on for over 20 years now, over in Campbelltown.
Speaker 1:I'm 22 and you're 17.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so on paper you think oh it hasn't grown a lot.
Speaker 2:It has grown, but not gangbusters. The growth has been in the hearts and the lives of people. That's where I see the growth, when a family's impacted and then you'll see their kids or their grandkids come along. That's what I see as impact. That's what I see as growth, not numeric growth. It's just oh, you've been going for 20 years and you've probably grown a smidgen, you know, like on paper. Yet I've seen the lives of people, a massive growth when they turn their lives over to Jesus and live for him.
Speaker 1:Now for me, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:And that's what a success for a minister seeing people grow Just aggression.
Speaker 1:We'll come back to the other churches in a moment, but 17 years you'd been there. What was your journey, from that moment of hearing the sermon where Jesus was spat on to beginning in Christian ministry? How did you see? Ah, what were you doing before Christian ministry?
Speaker 2:Because you were 18, 20, something like that. Yes, I was nearly finished my apprenticeship as a baller maker, so I'm a tradie boy. My father raised me that way. You always get a trade son before you. So I was a baller maker probably third year. A little touch of my life.
Speaker 2:And the day I finished my apprenticeship I went off to Bible college. Wow, the day I finished it I achieved my trade. And I said to my apprenticeship I went off to Bible college. Wow, the day I finished it I achieved my trade. And I said to my dad I'm going off to study the Bible. He thought I was cracked. He goes what's wrong with you? I said, no, well, god's got this plan for me, dad and I'm going to go. So I signed up and went straight into Bible college, straight away at Bimberdine, at Cootamundra Aboriginal college. And that Bimberdeen, at Cootamundra Aboriginal College. And that's when I started my ministry training to learn about the Bible, because I didn't know much about the Bible.
Speaker 2:So I learnt through Sunday school. I taught some Sunday school. Yeah, that was my Bible college training.
Speaker 1:And then full-time ministry after that.
Speaker 2:Oh, yep. So I went to Bimberdeen and then I went to Emmaus Bible College I don't know Tarley Bible College in Newcastle. Did three years there because that was a non-denominational college, great church In the bush, so it suited me. Yep. And then I went off to Emmaus Bible College, which was a Brethren Bible College.
Speaker 2:You are eclectic, so I did a year there and got my degree with them, I got married, went to the Kimberleys for a year, did some parcel work at La Perouse so I've just had a bit of a variety and then come back from the Kimberleys and then I spent probably close to 10 years in Department of Community Services working with children who've been through horrific experiences through care, and so I spent 10 years with them while still preaching around it's hard to get a full-time ministry for an Aboriginal person. There's not much avenues. And then I started linking up with the Anglicans and, lo and behold, I ended up working with them and signing up in 2008 and I've been there ever since with the Sydney Diocese Great.
Speaker 1:Now we've gone. Macarthur, take me over to Mount Druitt. What's going on there?
Speaker 2:Mount Druitt. Rick Manton has been there for 25 years, which is a it deserves a medal.
Speaker 1:Yep, because I mean well, mount Druitt would have changed a lot, but that was a hard area of Sydney 25 years ago.
Speaker 2:So that was the largest population of Sydney for many, many years.
Speaker 1:For Indigenous people. Yeah yeah, it was also one of the lowest socioeconomic areas in Sydney. It's a hard gig. Yeah yeah, it's also one of the lowest socioeconomic areas in Sydney.
Speaker 2:It's a hard gig yeah. And he's been there 25 years. So it takes me out after Rick Manton and his family, because ministry is a family ministry and he's been through drought, storm. He's been through that much out there but he's still there.
Speaker 2:And he's known by the community, they know where to go when they need help. And he's known by the community, they know where to go when they need help. And again, if you look on paper and you go, wow, the church is like this up and down and that's the life of a lot of our community. Sometimes there's a good season, then there's a drought, but the key is that you have the church there as a staple point in that church, into the community, because when there's death, crisis, suicide, brokenness, homelessness, no food, they'll always turn up at our churches. They'll know that they'll do whatever they can. If it means going in your own cupboard to get food for family just to get through the night, they know that they can. If it means going in your own cupboard to get food for family just to get through the night.
Speaker 1:They know that they can access that. Is it the case? I mean, you just said a moment ago that Mount Druitt had high Indigenous population. Where are the other high Indigenous populations in Sydney?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, traditionally it's been Mount Druitt, followed by the MacArthur in numbers, and then in the city it's growing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like in the city Just around us here.
Speaker 2:Now Redfern's the hotspot for this nation traditionally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because everything started in Redfern in a lot of ways. So Redfern's a central, integral part of the Aboriginal people in Sydney, let alone.
Speaker 1:Australia. Well, let's go over to Redfern and there's the Living Water Church there. Yes, tell us about that.
Speaker 2:So Living Water has been going for jeez. I was there when I first started just to support them and they're doing a great ministry. They're having a general ministry with a specific focus on trying to reach Aboriginal people and they do a good job. I applaud them. But I do know that when it comes to Indigenous ministry. But I do know that when it comes to Indigenous ministry, to get the best rooting and grounding in community generally, it's best driven by Indigenous people because they have the ability to engage with the roots of the community, where when you have a mainstream approach, it never gets to the roots of the community where, when you have a mainstream approach, it never gets to the roots generally.
Speaker 2:It's just an experience I've seen. I've seen many churches try to reach Indigenous people.
Speaker 1:Well, it would actually be true with any particular homogenous group that if I want to reach an Asian person, it's going to be easier if I'm Asian, you know.
Speaker 2:It's a simple principle, but we try to support the church as best as we can from our community perspective personally, because we want to see all churches prosper, yeah, and all people groups, and they're having a good crack at trying to reach out to our community and I respect that and I'll support it the best.
Speaker 1:I can. Then what's going on down at Nowra? So Nowra's been going on now for so is that we've got MacArthur, mount, druitt, redfern, and is Nowra the fourth population spot, or is there many others in between?
Speaker 2:No, we've got Ray Minicon at Glebe and he's been ministering in the city now for over 20 years.
Speaker 1:There's probably I don't know eight or ten people involved in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he's been there. So the thing I'm proud of is that when our men step up to serve the Lord, they're serious about it. So Rick Mann's been 25 years. Uncle Ray Minicon's been over 20 years in the city.
Speaker 1:It's a hard gig, yeah, and he's still doing it and we're going to need a new generation to come through. That's the challenge, yeah.
Speaker 2:So these men are amazing, men and women, because remember that they're only strong because they're families yeah, their wives. That's the key. So women are always valued in our community because they're often the strongest ones in many of our communities. Our women are amazing and our men who serve the Lord are stronger because they're wives.
Speaker 1:They are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Brendan Garlis down there. He's been there for two years now. He was there two years previously, nine years ago, doing his MTS. So he's been there four years now in theory, two years before and two years now, Young man, he's been doing training at the well, so he has been involved in revitalising it, which is again challenging.
Speaker 1:How does ministry strategy to an Indigenous people group? What does it look like and how is it different to what I might be doing in a more generalist ministry?
Speaker 2:Well, my view and. It's all preaching Christ, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:But what do you actually do? That's different and how do you think about it? That's different.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the key difference is often, let me say, mainstream churches are program driven and they have the ability to run their program. They have the people to help assist in those programs and they invite community to them. You know, or they'll have a program out where, in Aboriginal ministries, we're people driven, so we're responding to the needs of our community and bringing God into that need and when there's a crisis we're right there with them, bringing God into right where people are hurting. So we're not driven by programs. If you ask me, do I have a 12-month plan? I don't, and I see fellas who have five year plans. I'm just wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:My plan is just to be walking with my people so I'm aware of what's happening in our community so that I can respond with the message of God right there where it's needed. So a bulk of my ministry is actually out in the community and most of the people in our churches is very similar. We're out there because our community is so broken and fragile. So we have to be there, bringing the hands of God to where the need is to love, to have an impact, and then there might be a little tiny movement of people into the church, but often it's actually our church ministries in the community. So if I'm out there with the drunks in the park, I bring church to them. I don't say I come to my church, I come to our church and we bring the message of God where they're at, where they feel comfortable, because often people won't go to church.
Speaker 1:I've just got two reflections, I mean, on the one hand, I mean I would hope that the program I'm trying to set up is to enable me to do more people ministry, yes, yes, but there's also I mean there's a size issue that when you're smaller you can do it in a more ad hoc way, but as you get bigger you've got to get more organised. Yes, but there's also just the financial issue. You know that in the end we've got to work to get our churches to be financially independent you know, and how do we do it?
Speaker 1:I mean, the church, where it's 15 or 20, it's got to take money from outside. You know, correct? Yeah, but there's a fragility that you're talking about that necessitates that at the moment.
Speaker 2:The fragility of the people, yeah, but there's a fragility that you're talking about that necessitates that at the moment. The fragility of the people. Yes, and you're exactly right. When we have a people group that's the most discarded group in this country and decimated by policies passed of children land, everything's been removed and so there's going to need to be more TLC and therefore, everything's been removed, and so there's going to need to be more TLC and therefore it's going to be more labour intensive.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the biggest key for our ministry is having a relationship with our community, which is costly. Yeah, there's time costs there's heart costs and when it comes to financial, we just go live day in, day out, as our community does, trying to bring God into a space where they're so disenfranchised a lot of our community where they can find the riches of God. But you can't buy that.
Speaker 2:That's a free gift from God through grace, and that's what changes lives. And the biggest key for an Aboriginal ministry is having a relationship, knowing the name of their dog, knowing the names of their kids and their grandkids. So when we get invested in our community, we get to know the generations of their families.
Speaker 2:We get to know their grandparents, their tribal lines, so we just don't know their address. We know them, we know their families, we know their grandkids and when I go down the street I can tell the song lines of all the different families I run into. That means I'm invested into their song lines and I want to bring God into their, not just traditional songlines that have led them to where they are, to where they are now, so God becomes a part of their future songline. So it's hard work, it's a personal investment, but it's driven by relationship. If I can't have a relationship with somebody, why would I share the love of God to them and the message of Jesus if I don't actually know them? Otherwise you give them a flyer and say good luck.
Speaker 1:We are out of time. Thank you so much for coming in. Michael Duckett has been my guest. He leads the Christian ministry at MacArthur Anglican Indigenous Church and he's been our guest on the Pastor's Heart this week. Of course, it's Aboriginal Sunday across Australia this Sunday. My name's Dominic Steele. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
