The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele

More pressure on government over chronic gambling - with Stu Cameron

Stu Cameron Season 6 Episode 50

Church Leaders have welcomed the report of the trial of cashless gambling which recommends that ‘account based gambling’ be introduced in New South Wales by 2028. 

There are bigger problems with gambling in Sydney and New South Wales than pretty much anywhere in the world (outside Las Vegas). 

But the Clubs and Hotels industry is running a narrative attempting to discredit the trial, calling it a three million dollar waste of money. 

Senior Minister of Sydney’s Wesley Mission Stu Cameron was the church representative on the inquiry panel and says while the outcome is welcome, it’s now up to the government, ‘the devil will be in the details’ and we need to keep the pressure on.

Gamble Aware Helpline (within Australia) 1800 858 858

The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is an excellent website and app platform built specifically for churches. 

Ideas that changed the world 
Help your small group know the thinkers and the ideas that stand behind the reformation.  We feature Calvin, Luther, Tyndale and Cranmer and the breakthough thinking around Grace, Faith, Bible and Christ. Download videos to show in your bible study group and purchase a workbook from Matthias Media.

Financially Support The Pastor's Heart via our new tax deductible fund
Please financially support The Pastor's Heart via our new tax deductible giving page.

Support the show

--
Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.

Speaker 1:

It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And today we go gambling. Well, we examine the tragic, murky mess that gambling causes in ruining people's lives, and the worst impact of gambling pretty much anywhere in the world is in New South Wales and then here in Sydney we are addicts. A report on what to do following a trial of cashless gambling was released last week. The clubs and hotels industry is running a narrative discrediting the trial, but the report does actually recommend mandatory statewide account-based gambling pretty much cashless gambling, and that it'd start in 2028. Stu Cameron is Senior Minister of Wesley Central Mission in the centre of Sydney. His church is deeply involved in helping addicts, helping gambling addicts, and so Stu was the church guy on the panel, the inquiry panel, and he is with us on the Pastor's heart this afternoon. Stu Cameron, let's start with your pastor's heart, and I mean the pubs and clubs are saying the whole inquiry was a waste of time, but I think you're more optimistic.

Speaker 2:

Yes, cautiously. So I think we've moved the conversation forward. I mean, dominic, two years ago here in New South Wales we weren't having this conversation at all. I mean for six decades. Particularly the poker machine industry here in New South Wales had really suppressed any conversation, had both sides of politics running scared. It really had captured the whole political class and it wasn't until Dominic Perrottet put his head above the parapet leading into the last state election.

Speaker 1:

So former Premier of New South Wales, former Premier of New.

Speaker 2:

South Wales LNP and I actually interviewed him for an Easter breakfast at Wesley Mission and I asked him about six months earlier what he thought about poker machines and the fact that the New South Wales government is as addicted as anybody because of the taxation revenue they rely on, and he said in that conversation, which was reported on later, that he wished that the New South Wales government didn't take $1 from those machines.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, that's what I wish. I wish people like you and me paid higher tax so that underprivileged people wouldn't have their lives ruined.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and six months later he announced this staggering policy of going to mandatory universal cashless gambling by 2028. And I think he stunned us. To be frank, he stunned the New South Wales pubs and clubs industry and he stunned Labor, and so New South Wales Labor had to scramble to come up with their own policy.

Speaker 1:

I mean it was exciting to see that the Greens. If we go over to the far left, though, I remember our local member, jamie Parker our local member at the time saying he was so proud of right-wing Dominic Perrottet over that announcement.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and there's no question. Look, Josh Landis, who was then the CEO of Clubs New South Wales, reportedly said well, he's doing this out of his Catholic guilt, or something like that, and in the end he lost his job over those comments, those quite disparaging comments. But there's no question that Dominic Perrette, who has a strong Catholic faith, Roman Catholic faith really was a conviction.

Speaker 2:

This wasn't something he was necessarily going to win votes over and it was also something he was going to also cop a lot of internal flack within the LNP. There were people within the Liberal National Party that were resisting any reform, so he spent a lot of political capital. It was a really courageous move and it forced Labor to come up with their own policy.

Speaker 1:

And I mean Labor. I thought were weak on this issue going to the state election, and I do actually remember talking to one of their candidates who said she thought they were a bit weak too. But where are they now? What's the report come out to say, and where does it leave the government? Let's do what's the report say first.

Speaker 2:

Well, the report says, as you said in your introduction, the introduction of an account-based gambling system for poker machines and pubs and clubs, by 2028, voluntary initially and then by 2028, mandatory, allowing for some cash top-ups. Now, we were the only I was the only panel member that said there should be no cash, which aligns with the Crime Commission, because with poker machines, it's not just around the addictive nature of them, which, of course, is what we're primarily interested in, but also crims. Basically use poker machines to launder money. The Crime Commissioner showed that. So you can go into a pub or a club and, on a machine that can take $10,000 in cash to this day, you can put it in and then, five minutes later, take out $9,990 and you've washed that money clean, and so the Crime Commissioner was saying we should have no cash on poker machines, and we totally agree with that, and we're disappointed that in the end the panel executive did not recommend that.

Speaker 2:

Having said that, they did recommend account-based gambling, which means it's identity linked. It means it does allow for harm minimisation measures to be built in, like breaks in play, like spending limits, these sorts of things. So if I could use an analogy, the devil's in the detail, measures to be built in like breaks in play, like spending limits, these sorts of things. So if I could use an analogy, the devil's in the detail. So that detail still needs to be worked through. So that's significant. We're really disappointed that an opportunity to close down poker machines between midnight and 10am wasn't embraced by the panel executive. We strongly advocated for that. We still are doing that, and 82% of New South Wales residents say they want to see poker machines powered down between midnight and 10 am. So we're disappointed that recommendation hasn't come through.

Speaker 1:

What's the amount of gambling that gets done? In that I mean after I've gone to bed.

Speaker 2:

Look, we don't know exactly, or that information is not yet published, but what we do know is this Nobody makes good decisions after midnight Nobody, nothing good happens in a poker machine venue at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 2:

Let's be honest, and certainly surveys and research shows that those who are at significantly higher risk of gambling harm are the ones who are in those venues in the early hours, and so we think that a sensible and proportionate reform is to power down the machines between midnight and 10am. Now there are some venues across New South Wales that are only closed down for two or three hours a day. They close down at 6am and they're up and open again at 9 or 10am in the morning. We think that's ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

Okay, what's this top-up thing you were talking about? Because I mean you say, and I said in my introduction, it's almost cashless gambling. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

What's the almost there? Well, the recommendation is to allow people to top up their card. They have a card.

Speaker 1:

So everyone you've got a card Say I put $1,000 on my card or $500 on my card.

Speaker 2:

So you can load that up, you can top that up and with limits to be determined, and I can keep doing that. Yeah, I can keep putting another $500, and another $500?.

Speaker 1:

Exactly so I could still launder money through my card.

Speaker 2:

It would make it harder, there's no question about that, depending on how much you're able to load up and the argument being here that you know, for people who are from overseas or in a state who just want to have a, you know, have a flutter on the machines while they're in New South Wales, this allows for them to be able to do that. We think that there are other ways of dealing with those particular issues. We think a card that's directly linked to a bank account. You're able then to be able to transfer. That has limits around that daily load-up limits, monthly load-up limits, yearly load-up limits as was recommended by the New South Wales government in their implementation of cashless technology. It's happening in Victoria. This reform will happen. You and I both know that our economy is increasingly going cashless.

Speaker 1:

Well, I mean, we had a pre-conversation yesterday on the phone and I think we both talked about the fact that we hardly carry money anymore.

Speaker 2:

I've got a $50 note in my wallet that I haven't touched for about six months.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know, yeah, and so it's going to have to go cashless. I mean, even if the government didn't want to do it, the reality is it must go there that way.

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean the silly thing is that the technology is being used in Crown Casino in Melbourne Now, when it was voluntary.

Speaker 1:

People won't sign up for a voluntary scheme and, if anything, the trial showed that If you have a voluntary scheme, I've got here a little video clip I'm going to play it to you from the news from last week when I think Channel 7 has actually bought the pubs and clubs line. Let's watch this 30 seconds and then we'll dig into that issue.

Speaker 5:

The state government's controversial trial of cashless poker machines has been exposed as an expensive waste of time. The final report was delivered today, revealing more than $3 million was spent, but only 14 gamblers bothered to stick with it.

Speaker 4:

The government's punt on cashless gaming has turned out to be no jackpot win. During a six-month trial, a digital wallet was introduced for pokies in 14 clubs and hotels across the state, but today the final report revealed it was an expensive loss.

Speaker 5:

The take-up rates were very disappointing.

Speaker 1:

OK, stuart, that's Channel 7's report and let's just pick up on a couple of those clauses. An expensive waste of time.

Speaker 2:

Well, look, pubs and clubs were the venues in which this trial obviously was hosted and effectively were responsible for signing up participants. They didn't really exactly have a lot of motivation to do so. I mean, they participated in the whole exercise, as we did, in good faith. But what the experience here in New South Wales showed, what experience in other states have shown, when you have a voluntary scheme where people sign up for this technology voluntarily, they won't do it. It's been happening in Victoria for years. But when it's mandatory, when the only way that people are able to use poker machines or, in Crown Casino's case, casino games, then they will sign up. So, for example, in Victoria, crown Casino for some time had a voluntary scheme. They were required to keep their license because of some bad behavior in the past to have a mandatory cashless gambling system. Within the space of around a year, 400,000 people signed up. So it's really about the motivation.

Speaker 1:

It's demonstrated that it can work, oh 100%.

Speaker 2:

The technology's there, it's been proven, it's in the field, and so the narrative of the pubs and clubs industry is that it won't work. Of course it will work, it is actually working, and it's really about seeing the government and our political leaders having the political will and courage to enact a reform that will protect hundreds of thousands, if not more than a million, new South Wales residents.

Speaker 1:

Well let's just come back to the government, or Labor's position. You've had the strong position from the right, from Dominic Perrottet, a strong position from the far left in the Greens, and the government caught in the middle. They went to the last election with the weakest policy on this issue. What do you think they're going to do? I mean, they're kind of hiding under the blankets at the moment.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, look. I mean we've worked really closely with Minister Harris' office, who's the current Minister for Gaming and Racing, and Minister Harris himself has spoken publicly about his own lived experience of gambling harm in his family.

Speaker 1:

In that he's got relatives who've yeah, indeed yeah, who've experienced gambling? Harm Messed up lives. Yeah, yeah, so he actually wants to see reform.

Speaker 2:

We believe he does. We think he's operating in good faith. He's one voice within Cabinet, so we want to make sure that that voice is strengthened. And other reform. There's no question. Within all parties and we're seeing this federally as well, in Labor, at a national level there are those who are saying we need to do something about sports betting advertising, for example. We want to make sure that the voices on the left and on the right are strengthened so that others who might be wavering within their ranks come on board as well.

Speaker 1:

Do you think the government would be regretting not taking? I mean, I thought it would have been awesome last election.

Speaker 2:

It was an amazing opportunity to have bipartisan.

Speaker 1:

If the left, the right, the far left, all had said let's go with the same policy. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We have all of the crossbench, so Helen Dalton and Kate Fairman, and you have Alex Greenwich, as you say, all of that crossbench which tends towards the progressive side of politics, all on board. You had a great section of LNP on board, coming in behind Dominic Perrottet. There was an amazing opportunity, a moment in time where we could have had enacted a reform that would have been perhaps the most significant social reform in New South Wales for some decades. That moment was missed, but that moment hasn't passed and that's why it's incumbent upon those of us who are believers to be praying and working towards that end.

Speaker 1:

So right now the government's. Well, the report has been made public but you haven't yet heard what the government is going to do. But really the pressure is on the government. If the Crime Commission said it, now your new report has said it. The Crime Commission said it.

Speaker 2:

Now your new report has said it 82%, or 72%, of New South Wales residents are saying they have no issue with the introduction of a mandatory cashless gambling card. So the community is on board as well. And, of course, the government's own research shows that up to 1.7 million New South Wales residents are at risk or have been impacted by gambling harm, either theirs or someone they know. This is an issue that touches every demographic and every postcode in our state.

Speaker 1:

But particularly the lower socioeconomic postcodes.

Speaker 2:

So there are pubs in, for example, fairfield LGA yeah, postcodes. So there are pubs in, for example, fairfield LGA, one of their poorer LGAs, where pubs who have 26% of New South Wales poker machines but make 44% of the profits. There are pubs in the poorest postcodes who, on their 30 machines, are making north of $10 million a year in profits on their 30 machines, $300,000 to $400,000 per machine, $1,000 a day per machine. So they are staggering figures. And so this is, at essence. This is an economic fight, this is a social reform fight, but this is a spiritual battle, because this is a battle with mammon and with principalities and powers, because when you have such significant profits here in New South Wales $8.1 billion lost on poker machines every single year, $1,000 for every man, woman and child in the state then those who are benefiting from those profits eastern suburbs, pub barons and others they're going to do everything they can to protect it, and that's why we need to be praying into this. We need to be with wisdom, wise as serpents, gentle as doves.

Speaker 1:

We need to be engaging in the political conversation as well Is the sense that I mean when you talk about that much profit per day. There's obviously an extraordinary amount of money being washed through the poker machines.

Speaker 2:

Well, the Crime Commission found that they can't quantify exactly how much. So we don't know how much, hundreds of millions, of billions.

Speaker 1:

We don't know how much is the percentage, that is, if you like the problem gambler and how much is dirty money. We don't know that percentage.

Speaker 2:

No, no, look, we know that a significant proportion of poker machine profits comes from those who are experiencing gambling harm, that a significant proportion of poker machine profits comes from those who are experiencing gambling harm. There was a Central Queensland University study released earlier this year and the average poker machine punter in Australia I think it was around $3,500 or $4,500 a year, because only 18% of New South Wales residents actually play the poker. So if you think you know, just multiply that by $5,000, you're looking $4,000 or $5,000 on average is being lost by a poker machine player.

Speaker 2:

Now there'd be plenty that would be much higher. Some would be much lower than that. So people who are losing tens of thousands of dollars, if not not more, and we see this tragically playing out in criminal cases again and again. Again it's talking to a friend who was a chaplain in one of our prisons and he said to me time and time again he's having conversations with prisoners who turned to crime to feed a gambling addiction.

Speaker 1:

It's having a profound impact on families and individuals, assuming I go into politics because I want to do the community good? Why, when the argument is so strong, is the government still?

Speaker 2:

not biting the bullet or being dragged, kicking and screaming.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean my predecessor, alan Walker. Back in the 1950s, a great man of God, a prophetic voice here in Australia, when the then Labor government was looking at introducing poke machines, warned what would happen, what this would mean for the state and, tragically, his prediction, his prophetic insight, proved to be true. Because very soon after that, clubs first and then pubs. In the 1990s again, it was a Labor government under Bob Carr who allowed pubs, who were saying we're so poor and the clubs are so wealthy and we need to have these machines as well, and we need to have these machines as well.

Speaker 2:

They have captured the conversation and they have had politicians running, scared ever since of ever making any adjustments to that, because where money is, inevitably there is power, and that power has been brought to bear. Clubs New South Wales for many, many years adopted the tactics of the National Rifle Association in America. In other words, you attack. The best form of defence is attack, and so when Julia Gillard a number of years ago was going to enact reforms, they came out on the attack and politicians watched that and they get very nervous about making any change.

Speaker 2:

That's why bipartisan support is so crucial.

Speaker 1:

Let's just go to the federal sphere for a minute and sports betting. And I mean, as somebody who doesn't go to the poker machines at one level it doesn't affect me, but it totally affects me that every ad break there is every is every. Every ad break.

Speaker 2:

There is a sports betting ad yeah, I mean over north of quarter of a million dollars is spent on sports betting advertising in australia. I mean it's a staggering and I just think little that I.

Speaker 1:

I know I'm not about to go gambling. I know I'm not about to go gambling like that, but I just think that little drip, drip, drip, drip of every ad break, every ad break all year, must be changed. I mean, the hope is for those people that it would change people's lives and more people would become gambling addicts.

Speaker 2:

And look, it's the normalisation Dominic you speak of, because if you see it everywhere on bus sides, on television, on social media and it's targeting a particular cohort, if you notice, if your listeners notice, it's targeting in particular young men.

Speaker 2:

Bet with your mates is one of the slogans, and so we're seeing in our services we provide gambling, counselling services and other services that touch on addiction. We're seeing increasingly young men who are caught up in this, Even while they're in high school. We've got one young bloke who started punting when he was 15 and developed an addiction before he was even legally allowed to bet. And that's happening in our private schools and our public schools, and you know.

Speaker 1:

So it was a profound failure the other day that when they rammed through 30 pieces of legislation in the last five hours of the parliament sitting for the year, they couldn't do this one.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that proved, Dominic, where there's a will, there's a way, yeah, but there has. There's a will, there's a way, yeah, but there has to be a will and there's not a will. On this, it seems like people like Peter Volandes who has the year of the Prime Minister, it's reported are able to sow enough.

Speaker 2:

Head of racing, head of rugby league yeah, exactly, and it is the combination of the gambling companies themselves. It's the sporting codes that become reliant on that revenue, because for every bet that you place on the NRL or the AFL, the sporting codes themselves get a cut of it. You know somewhere AFL somewhere around $40 million that's before sponsorship. So they're in on it as well. And then so you've got the gambling companies, you have the sporting codes, and then you have the media channels, particularly legacy media, who are reliant on gambling companies for advertising revenue. They have three very powerful voices who are constantly walking the corridors in Parliament House in Canberra just making the case for holding the line and doing nothing when it comes to the Murphy inquiry recommendations, most particularly bringing in a full ban of sports betting advertising.

Speaker 1:

My friend Sandy Grant used the words gutless and spineless.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's not out of order at all.

Speaker 1:

Why do you think the government was prepared to be tough? On the social media and lift the age of social media use from 13 to 16? I mean because at one level, I mean you listed all those powerful people the rugby league, the AFL, the betting companies, the whole gamut there.

Speaker 2:

But you do think Google and YouTube and Facebook are powerful as well, so they weren't gutless there, whereas they are gutless here I'm reading Jonathan Haidt's book on the anxious generation, so I have some sympathy, some empathy for the government's move there. I'm not quite sure about the execution, but it's inconsistent. It borders on you could argue hypocrisy to say, well, we need to protect kids over here, but over here not so much.

Speaker 1:

These other vulnerable people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and a lot of them are kids. Dominic, if you talk to chaplains in our Anglican schools or Catholic schools or in our Christian schools, they'll tell you there are kids who know more about sports betting as they do about the rules of the game. We have normalised betting with sport. I'm a sports addict. I love it. I love my sport, but we are ruining it for the younger generation. We are saying you can't watch a game of elite sport without knowing the odds. That is poor form.

Speaker 1:

Explain to me the psychology of what's going on with me betting on my phone.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's the same with poker machines.

Speaker 1:

Because there's the link, there isn't there.

Speaker 2:

There is absolutely a link. It's about…. The dopamine hit yeah it's the availability and the speed. So if you're on a poker machine, you can spin the wheels, so to speak. You can press the buttons every two to three seconds, so you can just be…. It might be just $1 bet but you do that every two or three seconds. It quickly clocks up.

Speaker 2:

Remembering that these machines you never win. You never, ever win. On the poker machines, they are programmed to ensure that you lose. Similarly with sports betting. I mean, you can bet in-game. There are multitudes of ways you can bet, and so they're always introducing options and products. So it's not like back in the day before sports betting online sports betting you'd walk into a TAB and place a bet, wait for the race to happen, then walk out.

Speaker 2:

Now, of course, you can bet on all sorts of sporting codes elite or otherwise, and you can bet in multitudes of ways and it's all just tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. So there's no friction. You're not passing your money over the counter. There's no friction, there's frequency and there's a prevalence of opportunity for you to be able to do so. It's the dopamine hits that connect both poker machine addiction and sports betting addiction as well. Fifty-seven percent of gambling harm in Australia is a result of poker machines, but a close second is sports betting and online betting.

Speaker 1:

I'm just thinking to do it so easily.

Speaker 2:

yeah, you can be lying in bed at 3 o'clock in the morning betting on a soccer game in the UK in the third division, yeah, in League 1 or League 2.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, when my defences are down, I'm not thinking my best.

Speaker 2:

It's like going into that poker machine venue at 3 o'clock in the morning. So we live in this 24-7 cycle, this globalised cycle, and there's so much to be thankful for.

Speaker 1:

So where's this debate going to go?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think where I believe it's going to go is that we're going to get a sensible proportion reform.

Speaker 1:

I mean it must get wound back, because every single ad every single, yeah, I mean. It's an avalanche of ads. It's an avalanche Any right-thinking person is going to say this is too much. It's an avalanche of ads. It's any right-thinking person who's going to say this is too much. It's being stuffed down my throat, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And similarly what's happened with the social media ban and the conversation around that, as you alluded to before. Parents are jumping up and down when it comes to sports betting advertising. Yeah, They've had a gutful the AFL and their own fan survey. Overwhelmingly, AFL supporters are saying we don't want gambling advertising. We don't want gambling associated with our sport, so it's going to be a groundswell of people that in the end, will be a voice. Governments and sporting codes won't be able to.

Speaker 1:

I mean you and I, I think we're at the same age and so we both remember smoking advertisements when we were kids and the phasing out of smoking advertisements. I mean we're actually watching, in a sense, the same forces replaying.

Speaker 2:

It's the same playbook, yeah because then, you know, the sporting codes, the media companies, the tobacco companies all screamed we'll be ruined hand-in-hand. You know we're not going to survive all of this. Well, I watched Australia, you know, beat India in the cricket on the weekend. The game is in robust health. You know we still have our legacy media.

Speaker 1:

And the footy's not called the Winfield Cup anymore.

Speaker 2:

No, no no, we don't have Benson and Hedges tests anymore, and so on it goes. So, look, we don't have Benson and Hedges tests anymore, and so on it goes. So, look, the market will adjust. The market will find a way of meeting those gaps. But what will be different is we'll see far less addiction, we'll see far less harm, we'll see far less suicidal ideation, domestic and family violence, all the things that are associated with gambling harm.

Speaker 1:

Why don't you lead in prayer for some of these vulnerable in our community as we finish?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you so loving and gracious God. We want to thank you. We want to thank you for the opportunity and privilege we have of standing alongside those who have no voice and helping them find a voice to speak up for justice. Lord, we pray particularly for those today who are struggling with shame and with guilt because of their addictive behaviours and the impact that's had on them and had on those whom they love. Lord, we pray that you would lead them to a place of confession and repentance and new life, new life in Christ that you offer them. Lord.

Speaker 2:

God, we pray that you would draw around those who suffer with addiction right now, whether it's gambling addiction, alcohol addiction, drug addiction, whatever it might be, lord, that you would tear down the idols that are destroying their lives and that you would bring freedom and liberty. In Jesus' name, lord, we pray that, as your church, you would help us to minister to those who are hurting, those who are living under the yoke of oppression. That you would help us and empower us to speak out prophetically against the principalities and powers that would look to enslave and enchain. Lord, god, we pray for politicians who have stepped up and stepped out and boldly spoken for reform. We pray that you would raise other women and men who would stand alongside them and speak for justice. We pray all of this in the mighty powerful name of Jesus, our Saviour and our Lord, amen.

Speaker 1:

Amen. Stu Cameron has been my guest on the Pastor's Heart. He is the Senior Minister of Wesley Central Mission in the centre of Sydney and, of course, wesley Mission long, long history in being deeply involved in supporting and caring for underprivileged and well people struggling with addiction. My name is Dominic Steele and you've been with us on the Pastor's Heart. We will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.

People on this episode