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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Older people & ‘Positive Jesus focused choices’ - with Ying Yee, Carmel Vincent and Ian Carmichael
How do we proactively serve Jesus in retirement? How might we motivate our older church members to prioritise the work of the gospel?
Mike Raiter said on The Pastor’s Heart a little while back that retirement needs rethinking to avoid the sin of the sluggard.
Mike Raiter said downing tools at 65 and spending 20 or 30 years resting is a 19th century concept and is not Christian.
But what is the alternative?
Ying Yee is lead English Pastor of Chinese Christian Church Milsons Point in Sydney.
Carmel Vincent serves as training and events coordinator at the Ministry Training Strategy.
And Ian Carmichael was CEO of Sydney’s Matthias Media.
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How do we proactively serve Jesus in retirement and how might we motivate our church members to that effect? Yingyi, Carmel Vincent and Ian Carmichael are our guests. It is the Pastor's Heart. My name is Dominic Steele. Thanks for joining us. How do we use the second half of our lives to serve God and how do we encourage older people to prioritise the work of the gospel? The work of the gospel? Mike Rater said on the Pastor's Heart a little while back that retirement needs rethinking to avoid the sin of the sluggard.
Speaker 2:And I hear people say oh Mike, I'm very busy in my retirement. I play golf twice a week, we join the bridge club tennis on Friday afternoons. We go to the movies once a week with our cheap tickets and every month we take off in our camper van and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. That might be a bit of a straw man, a bit of a caricature. This is the busy life of the retiree. It sounds a lot to me like the life of the sluggard, a life of self-indulgence.
Speaker 1:That's not what we're called to. Mike Rader said downing tools at 65 and spending 20 or 30 years resting is a 19th century concept and is not Christian. But today we turn to the positive. How might we do better in Christian ministry? In this space, ying Yi, his lead pastor of lead English pastor of the Chinese Christian Church at Milsons Point in Sydney, carmel Vincent serves as training and events coordinator at the Ministry Training Strategy and Ian Carmichael was CEO of Matthias Media in Sydney for a long CEO for a little while, but involved there for a long time. They're our guests today. On the Pastor's Heart. On the Pastor's Heart, yung Yee. What are the idols that retirees worship?
Speaker 3:What are the idols? I think very much they're similar to what Michael was saying. You know in the last one, and their biggest idol is just what I often say just travelling around the world, playing golf and planting roses. I think that's their biggest idols when they come into retirement.
Speaker 1:Now you say they, but you're 66 this week. Yeah, I'm 66,.
Speaker 3:But I hate playing golf, I hate planting roses and I can't afford to travel around the world. So I've got to do something better with my life, and that is to keep talking about Jesus.
Speaker 1:But well, travel rather than materialism, is the idol.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the materialism shows itself in these sorts of areas because at that age right, they've got all the things they need. So what do they want to do? They want to actually use that time to travel. That's what they love doing and that's what I've seen so many seen in many of my retiree friends.
Speaker 1:Okay, ian Carmichael, he said they, but you say you.
Speaker 4:Well, no, it's still. It's me too. I'm now kind of in that semi-retired stage of life. I think I probably differ with you on one thing. I think very commonly the people my age that I know they're spending a lot of their time looking after grandkids as well, which there's a lot of good things about that, but it can also be almost a full-time occupation for some of my friends.
Speaker 1:I think that's a bit of a danger too, and I mean he used the word idle. Would you use the word idle there?
Speaker 4:I think that'd be harsh.
Speaker 4:I think it's a real opportunity to spend time with your grandkids and to influence them for Christ and influence on how they grow up to follow Jesus, but where it becomes a dominant part of your week, mainly so that your kids can go back to work. And I understand that there's difficulties, particularly those who live in expensive parts of the world like Sydney, that sometimes they have to go back to work and it's nice to have grandparents who can look after the kids, but I don't think we want to let it dominate our lives quite so much Okay, carmel.
Speaker 1:what's your heart on this?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I agree with both of Ying and Ian. I think also there's just the idol of comfort.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 5:I've worked my whole life. It's time for me now to do me things and just, yeah, all those things that I couldn't do, say, when I was working, yeah, and I don't think like the ironic thing is that you can still. You can travel, but you know, you can't travel every day. You can do things and you can look after grandchildren, but we've got, you know, 24 hours on each day. We sleep in some of it, but we've got many hours, so yeah.
Speaker 3:I think I just want to follow up on what Ian said. I think you're right, ian. I think that it's not wrong to take care of grandkids. I think it's the right thing to do, but I think it's dominated them. Now they're back to work, so to speak, taking care of their kids. And you're right, travelling is a good thing. I would love to travel more, but you know you can't spend your whole life travelling. There's so much more to do, I think, with life than just that.
Speaker 1:So, okay, well, there's some criticisms. Yeah, what do you actually I mean? Well, ian, you called yourself semi-retired and you and I were talking on the phone on Friday and you said I think it was 57, that you said I don't need to work for money anymore. So tell us what you're doing, how it's working for you, having shot a few bullets.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So my story is a little bit different, because I worked in a Christian ministry for most of my life and then I got to a point where I could see that Matthias needed a little bit of a change. We needed some fresh energy and new leadership. And I was getting tired and I went to my founder financial planner and said am I in a situation where I could actually step back from paid work? And he said yes, largely due to the blessing of inheritance, and so I stepped back from paid employment but actually, somewhat unusually, I kept working for Matthias Media. So the new incoming CEO was happy for me to hang around and keep contributing, which is what I really wanted to do because I loved the ministry of Matthias Media.
Speaker 4:So I've ended up kind of still working but retiring for income. But it also freed me up. I do spend more time now. I've got more time to go. We're about to head down to Canberra to help look after the grandkids while my son-in-law is doing some ministry around Australia. So it just gives me a bit more flexibility in terms of my time, more time for church involvements and some other things I'm doing on the side as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to push back on the well, I want to push into the grandkid issue in a moment, but let's first do. How does life and you're 60 now, so this has kind of been three years that you've been doing this semi-retirement, three years that you've been doing this semi-retirement how does it look different to you to when you were actually paid 40 hours a week three, four years ago? What's changed? I mean, obviously the roles change, but what's changed in your week and your mindset?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so the main thing I think this changed is I'm not carrying the heavy responsibility and so the stress levels have come down a lot. I've had more flexibility. I think I have had more time in the last three years to be a bit more involved in things at church and to help in other ministry organisations doing some fundraising with CBS that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Sorry, we're an anti-acronym program. What's a CBS Campus Bible?
Speaker 4:Study at the University of New South Wales. So just having a bit more time and, as I said, a little bit more time for family. But because my grandkids are in Canberra, it's a little bit, you know, I can't be looking after them every day of the week or every second day of the week. When we go down we make an intentional decision to go down to help, because my daughter needs a bit of help with looking after the kids. But we try and go after church on a Sunday and then come back in time for Bible study, so we're not on Wednesday or something, so it's a two-and-a-half three-day trip.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, carmel, how have you? Because I mean Ying's 66, ian retired at 57, but how do you fit into all of this? What's your thinking in this space. I'm 55,.
Speaker 5:I'll just tell everyone how I fit in is years ago, so I know we're talking about retirees, but I think it's important. This is for anyone who gets to. You know an older age if you like.
Speaker 1:So enough of life.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, and I think what you just said before was really important. It's a mindset so what are you doing with your life? Like, I think, when we get to a certain age, we're quite good at just we keep going at what we're doing, we're working, and we don't rethink things, we just this is it and we don't think outside the square. So for me, when my kids, you know, started school, you know I was a state-at-home mum and I just slowly, you know, started teaching scripture was the first thing I started to do. I became a Christian in my early 30s so quite late, I think, compared to a lot of people and I just started teaching scripture and I just thought this is just like the most important thing I could be doing teaching kids about Jesus.
Speaker 5:And then it gradually grew from there and my church saw that I was keen to do more ministry, so they gradually just gave me more opportunities. And then, you know, finances came into it. We had a mortgage we still do and just how's this going to work? And church again thought outside the square and there was an admin role, one day a week supporting the senior pastor. So I did that and they paid me something for that which enabled me to keep serving, and I found it really hard because there were no role models that I knew that were an older person starting out. We had lots of young people which I served alongside and loved.
Speaker 1:So 20-somethings here in the ministry, not that many 45-year-olds Exactly exactly.
Speaker 5:And then I thought you know. So I was like God was charting the path, not me, but I just kept serving. I thought this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And then I thought I want to go to Bible college. I want to know God better Again. I didn't know anyone my age who went to Bible college, and so I spent a few years thinking I was too old and delayed it but then started it when I was 46 and just went part time 46, theological college student.
Speaker 5:Yes, Okay, what a joy and a privilege. That was. What a joy and a privilege. That was so part-time and it was hard. You know, I had two boys husband, so family and I still did as much ministry as I could and so, yeah, and I'm just really passionate about it. So now I work for MTS four days a week A brand and anti-acronym program.
Speaker 5:Sorry, Ministry Training Strategy four days a week. So we're excited to help trainers, pastors, raise up gospel workers through ministry apprenticeships and that's gospel workers of all ages and so I'm just really passionate to get this vision out there for churches, for pastors, to be intentional about seeing those older people in your churches and to give them the vision. Sometimes it just needs to be articulated.
Speaker 5:And there's been key moments in my life of people speaking they like about work and especially as a woman, you know, at a certain stage, if your husband's working, do you need to? It was Kamalina Reid, actually, at one of our women's conferences she was the speaker and she just did these little throwaway lines about you know, do you need to work? Or just you know, just in general, and it made me think and it's been hard, like financially, we sort of went backwards for a while. But it's about where's your heart and what's your gospel vision.
Speaker 5:And I just think, to have it articulated, I think, prime timers, which is what we're calling them, older people, 40 plus. However, you define that just for someone to be intentional and to say, hey, you know what, these are some other options you could be doing. Let's try and work together and obviously it's got to start with the gospel.
Speaker 1:It's got to start with God's word and it's got to be your heart.
Speaker 5:It's got to be in your heart and the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few. And so I can't think of a better way to live your second half of your life.
Speaker 3:Can I just say interesting that, carmen. When did you go into Bible college?
Speaker 5:I started when I was 46.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because we had one person in our church who went to Bible college at 72. Yeah, so it was great. Because he came to me, approached me am I too old to go to Bible college? I said to him no, absolutely not. Let's go to Bible college. No-transcript. So you're never too old. 72, I thought that's pretty good. And when I was at college there was this lady who was 90, I think she was doing Bible college something like that, wow.
Speaker 1:So, ian, let me just come back to you as you made this move at 57 and as you talked to peers, how have they been challenged by you and how have they thought, yeah, what's been the interaction, what's been the discussion?
Speaker 4:I haven't pushed it too hard because I feel like I'm in a slightly unusual situation, particularly financially, that I was in a position to do that. God's blessed me in that way. But I have been thinking recently about some of the other guys who I think are in a similar financial situation, that they've paid off their house and they've got sufficient money in their superannuation funds. What are you doing with your life? But I also want to I think I want to pick up what something Carmel said in this idea that we want to help people rethink.
Speaker 4:I think if we're not challenging people early on in their life, it's going to be even harder to challenge them once they've been doing their job for 30, 40 years and entrenched in it and gaining their identity from their work. I think we need to have a very robust theology of work to challenge people's careerism in their early 20s and if we don't have that, then it's going to be very hard to have a theology of work that's going to challenge them in their 40s and 50s and 60s, when they're even more entrenched in their careerism. So I think we've got some work to do as pastors and church leaders to think through our theology of work and what it is that it's actually going to compel people, that love of Christ that compels them to ministry, that needs to start a lot earlier than 50 or 60. It needs to shape the decision-making of our young people and our middle-aged people and our older people.
Speaker 1:I mean, if only I was talking to I don't know somebody senior in a Christian publishing house who had influence about books that could be.
Speaker 4:Well, there's one on the way. I believe there's one on the way.
Speaker 3:Can I just pick up on something that Ian said. I think what I've noticed over the many years is that we are happy to challenge the young people to think about their life, but for some strange reason we stop thinking about that when they get later stage. And so I remember when I was growing up at the University of New South Wales, you know, with Philip Jensen and all these other guys, just challenging the young people, think about what you're going to do, but for some strange reason we just stopped thinking. We stopped challenging them.
Speaker 1:We're happy to let these… Did we lose courage? Sorry, did we lose courage?
Speaker 3:No, I don't think we've lost courage, I think we've lost the plot and that is to say….
Speaker 1:That's more serious yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's because our whole focus, and this whole focus of primetime, the whole focus is on the next gen, and so we already start dismissing the old people and say, look, okay, you guys are in that stage, just retire and whatever, live life and whatever, and we actually stop thinking about challenging them. And so that's why we actually need to get back on the road and start challenging these people in their 40s and 50s to start thinking about what they're going to do with their life. So what do you?
Speaker 1:want to. I mean, paint Nirvana Yep, your lead English pastor at Chinese Christian Church. Yep, I'm imagining there's now I mean, you've been there 30 years here Yep, I'm imagining there's now quite a few people in your demographic Yep, I'm imagining there's now quite a few people in your demographic. Yep, if we were actually to see the good, what would the good look like in your church community, and then, by implication, mine and the other?
Speaker 3:ones. What I'd see is that I know that in my church, and I'm not sure others, there are many people and I don't want to say everyone many people who are financially sustainable, which is what Ian's just saying. That's right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think I mean, I would say in many of our generation, just the way property prices have gone means actually there's a lot of people now who are actually financially. I mean there are people younger than us who are struggling with property prices, but people our age who bought houses when we were young and now have downsized, there's an enormous privilege.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and so there's a lot of people who now are financially viable, so they should actually think about giving up their job.
Speaker 1:They don't need to keep working for the people. So you want more Ian Carmichael, More absolutely.
Speaker 3:So it's interesting what Ian was saying, that he hasn't pushed himself, which I can understand. I see a lot of people thinking like that ourselves. But it needs the church to actually push that sort of thing, not just the individual. Because when the individual like yourself, ian, think about that, then everyone's going to say, well, you're special, you're more spiritual, but we see this church culture pushing that. That's a different thing.
Speaker 1:I look at Ian Carmichael and think was CEO of a Christian publishing house, now thinking I could take less responsibility but still help the cause. I think, well, that's pretty attractive. What's it going to look like for somebody who hasn't got that? If you like, 30-year career trajectory in a Christian organisation, you know what's it going to look like for somebody who's an executive at a?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I mean for some people, right, some of them could probably go part-time, right, so they don't need to move full-time.
Speaker 1:Some of them can actually…. So you want to see 57-year-olds making that decision? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:In fact, I would like to see them when they turn 50 to make that big decision right. Some people still probably have to keep working because of whatever their property and things like that. But it's an opportunity to rethink about okay, I'm working these long hours, maybe I can change jobs, I can pull back, cut my responsibility or even take a demotion if possible in certain jobs and stuff like that. There is such a great opportunity for many people in their 50s to take different routes of what they can be doing in their life. The most important thing is what Campbell said. It's a mind shift, change to the way you think, and I think in my church there's a lot more people who can start rethinking about what they're going to do in their second life. Can I quit my job? I think there's a lot of people who could. Can I go part-time? Yeah, I think I could. Can I actually just massage and change the way I do things?
Speaker 4:Can I push back? Because I think we need to be careful though I don't want to be sending the message to people that once you've got enough money, then you can start serving. We need to be challenging people. I think a lot of Christians I don't excuse myself from this we live as if Jesus isn't returning.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's true, and that eschatological point of view doesn't drive the decisions we make now. That's, I think, the real challenge teaching those eternal realities to people. That shapes what they do now. So they're driven to ask all through their job could I be doing more ministry? How can I be glorifying God more? How can I speed the day of Jesus coming? How can I do that more? They want to be thinking that all through their life, not just have I got? I don't want the decision driven by. Have I now got enough money to be able to do this comfortably?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I was going to make the same point. I agree with that too. I don't think we don't want people to think, oh well, I'm not financially viable, so I can't do that.
Speaker 5:I just keep working because you know, and working is good. We're not saying this is for everyone. Everyone has to look at their own situation, obviously but it's driven by a heart for, yeah, what's the best way I can use my life for Jesus? How can I glorify God in everything I do? For some people, it might be to continue to work because that's what they need to do for their family, for whatever, but for some people, they really need to rethink and need, yeah, and that's why I think yeah for pastors to actually articulate that intentionally to older people. I think we hear that at church, you know, and I include myself in that, but we don't really challenge ourselves. Sometimes we need someone to actually challenge if we really are taking that seriously enough.
Speaker 3:I think you're right. I think in one sense it comes down to what you said, carmel. It actually needs to be driven by the gospel, it needs to be a way of thinking. But I suppose in many ways I think the danger for most of us is that we too easily move to the fact that you know I can't do it right. I know that in many churches we do unconsciously make this sort of decision, that it's driven by money. Unfortunately, and I think, as I was minded when I was growing up, right, if you truly live for Jesus, then you do have to ask the hard question can I financially go on or not? So you're right. I think some people they'll still need to continue working, and you're right in the sense that it needs to be driven by the gospel. But I sometimes wonder when we don't ask the hard question I have enough money now, I can do more? Oh, no, absolutely.
Speaker 5:And I think another thing that is really helpful which I, when I was going through this process, which would have helped me a lot is to just have a role model, someone who's done it before, and that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 5:We're trying to bring people together in this prime time ministry that we're starting to focus on and start to bring churches together and so they can speak to each other network, so that we can see these role models and see how you know it possibly could be done. Hey, look, that person's done like this. They had this issue, but this is how they've worked around it, and so there's that conversation that I think needs to be had. We need to get people, and what we're trying to do is, yeah, get pastors, get people in that aid group themselves and say, hey, what would help you? How can we help you? How can we make this work? Here are some people that have worked through it, that are doing it, and that might be an idea for you. So I think it's really important and so, yeah, this is a real great thing. Thank you for having us on to talk about this.
Speaker 1:I want to keep pushing on the I mean the positive thing that somebody might do. I mean because I mean I could see that if I was working at Matthias Media I could go and be the assistant to the CEO. But what if I'm not in that role? Do you know what are some of the? I mean, what would you like to somebody's working in graphic design? They're I don't know. They're an executive in a graphic design company and they're going to church at Milsons Point, or they're a senior lawyer going to church at Milsons Point. What are you going to say to them? And they're 59? And if you're 59 and you're in your own house and you've just downsized and you go to church at Milsons Point, you have these options.
Speaker 3:What do you want me to do? I mean, that's and that's a conversation I'm currently having with some of our prime times in my church, but the opportunities are endless because there are young people who can be mentored right, and they need older people. Uh, what I discovered in my church is that we used we used to have an evening congregation, right, and and half of them came from non-Christian families. Those parents would have been in their 50s and who were the ones who could have reached them Would have been the prime timers, right, it wouldn't have been the 30-year-old pastor or whatever, or 40-year-old pastor. It would have been a prime time.
Speaker 3:So there's a harvest field before them in terms of going out and staying connected with the parents of the young people. They can be actually spending more time catching up with coffee with their friends and peers. So I was catching up with someone the other day who's 51. He's not a Christian, he's in the horses and stuff like that, but I'm trying to read the Bible with him and things like that. So the opportunities are endless in terms of mentoring, in terms of discipling, even caring for the young pastors. We had a lady just recently in the primetime event 90. She just retired from teaching Scripture after 40 years of teaching. So that means she started at 50. So there's great need in Scripture teaching. Young people need to be mentored. Their parents need to reach out with the gospel. Their people in their peers need to reach with the gospel. The opportunities are endless, actually.
Speaker 1:Back to you, ian. You've talked about working part-time at Matthias Media, but you've also talked about helping out fundraising for a Christian organisation. And then, how has serving at church changed for you?
Speaker 4:Well, one of the things I realised is how much of a Christian bubble I'd been in. So when I came to think, how am I sharing this?
Speaker 1:You were working at a Christian publishing house.
Speaker 4:That's true. But that's one of the risks is your circle of non-Christian friends becomes very small. And so at our church we just started a little group to do some evangelism in the mall, the shopping mall. So I've joined that because I think that's one way I can do some evangelism. That's when I was working full-time as a CEO. That was the last thing I wanted to do on a Sunday afternoon. I just needed some downtime. Now I've got more time. I've got more flexibility. I can have a bit more rest during the week. That sort of thing I've got more emotional capacity for. So that's one of the examples. I think one-to-one Bible reading is a basic skill we could be training pretty much every Christian to do and is of enormous value. But I think a lot of our older folk don't have the confidence to initiate that sort of relationship with someone whether it's a younger person or one of their peers just to sit down once a week and read the Bible together.
Speaker 1:That's a great ministry, Kamal. What do you want to encourage people to be doing?
Speaker 5:Yeah, even if you're working. So obviously I work for a Christian organisation and they're very supportive of me doing whatever ministry I can outside of my work. So I take half a day off on a Thursday morning to go to a women's Bible study and, yeah, like I stopped leading for a couple of years while I got into work life with MTS, but I'm going to be leading again a women's Bible study Thursday morning, so I take half a day off. I take a week off in July to help coordinate our kids holiday club. I love kids ministry so I will, you know, help with some of the Christmas things going on. I've been discipling some younger women this year. So, yeah, I work out my week. Obviously I have my pay job and then I have ministry and I work out that routine.
Speaker 1:But I try and I mean just as you say that, my initial thought is, wow, I mean, here am I a pastor in the inner city of Sydney where house prices are through the roof and basically you cannot afford to live here unless both people are working pretty much full time. And so we have tried and tried and tried. I mean, the ministry model I'd had before I came here was of a women's Bible study where people were around for a number of years, you know, whereas here, when we've tried for women's Bible study many times, it's struggled because people need to race back to work.
Speaker 5:you know yeah.
Speaker 1:But if somebody older was making a sacrificial modelling, a sacrificial priority decision of choosing to work four and a half days a week so that they could lead a group, that would have a powerful modelling impact amongst some of those young mums, I think. Comments Ian Ying yeah. Can I just say not just with women but I find Do you find, Carmel, that your model has had a positive impact amongst the others there?
Speaker 5:Well, you'd have to ask them, but I hope so, like I've this Women's Bible Study that's on Thursday morning. I've actually. I was actually stopped briefly when I started working for Ministry of Training and Strategy because I was like, oh, I need to work out. So I started going to a night-time group, but this is like my 23rd year there, so I went when my kids were babies because we have a creche. So it's a wonderful ministry for young mums, older mums with babies. But the support that I got there from the older women was so amazing and hanging out with women and reading God's Word with women and praying with women that I've just kept going and then been trained up as a Bible study leader and then so now I can lead and I still love going, and so there's young mums who are in those stages. There's older women there not just myself who all make themselves available. Some work, some don't. Yeah, quite a few work and take that Thursday off to be there and it's just an amazing ministry.
Speaker 1:I'm just jealous yeah.
Speaker 5:Ying, I'm in trouble. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking, just going on what Carmen was saying. One of the things I love doing is every day just pick up the phone and ring people up saying you want to catch up for coffee and things like that. Right, because one thing I find with what COVID has done is we've moved people away from the office now to homes. There's a lot more flexibility, and I find that I ring people up, say you weren't free for coffee, and I try to load the day with meeting up with people. Now, that's just conversations, just reading the Bible with people, and I can imagine that even someone who whether it's half-time, full-time, whatever they can ring up their friend and say you want to catch up and have a chat, and there can be lots of diversity so you don't have to always start. Oh, I'm here, I've got to try and start a Bible study. I can actually meet people wherever they're at.
Speaker 5:Absolutely. We need people freed up to disciple others Like everyone. I mean speak for Sydney. I live in Sydney, but everyone's so busy and people need people.
Speaker 1:We need that fellowship and that community, and if you're an older person and you can free up that time, what a gift. Yeah, to your brothers and sisters in christ. We better just finally come back and deal with grandchildren properly. What is your, um, what's your ideal for? I mean because you seem to be saying if the grandparent was doing five days a week of grandchildren, you didn't think that that was the right way to go. I'm'm just trying to reflectively listen to what I think you were saying.
Speaker 4:I mean there can be circumstances where you know if there's a disability involved and you know the demands of being a parent of that child is considerably greater and you just need grandparents who really understand. Obviously, there's circumstances where it may well be appropriate to be giving significant amounts of your week to that care of that grandchild or grandchildren. I think, as with so many of these things I'd want to say make sure, if you're going to spend time with your grandchildren, spend time teaching them about God. Equip yourself, learn how to do that well, learn to understand children at different stages of their life so that you can teach them age appropriately as they get older. So make the most of it as a grandparent with your grandkids. I think also look at other things that you could be doing with your time. So some of those. You know that mentoring and reading the Bible one-to-one with other people, the flexibility that we have because we have more time just means we can make people where they're at and talk to them.
Speaker 4:You know, in a way, that perhaps it's not as easy for someone who's working full-time. So make the most of that flexibility and those opportunities. Sure, spend time with your grandkids that's a great thing. Make the most of that time, but don't let it become the dominant thing. I'm not going to put a number of hours per week on that. I think it's going to vary from person to person, situation to situation.
Speaker 3:I think I totally agree with Ian at that time. I think it's a conversation you've got to have with the kids right, because in one sense you also want to share the vision to your kids that you also want to be doing ministry. There's more to your life than their grandkids and their materialism Exactly.
Speaker 3:And I want to be fair to them, because it is tough living in Sydney. You basically need two incomes, but there needs to be a conversation where everyone has to sacrifice for the sake of the gospel the grandparents, so to speak. I want to make use of their life for the sake of the gospel and we actually want to challenge our kids that this is for the sake of the gospel. Do you need to downsize, do you need to pull back or whatever, and things like that. I remember saying to my daughter many years ago when she got married, that I would prefer for them to move away from Sydney to build a good life, a married life, build a good family. They're having to struggle with a mortgage down here in Sydney and things like that, but it's a conversation we're going to have.
Speaker 1:If you keep saying that no one's going to join my church.
Speaker 3:But I'll try and send people to your church. Okay, darling. But I think it's, and I can't remember what I was going to say, but I totally agree, we don't want you to pursue that long.
Speaker 5:There's also a lot of ministry you can do in your workplace sharing the gospel.
Speaker 3:I did have one guy in my church 60, I picked him up in the sense of starting mentoring him and he was one guy I did actually want to give. I told him not to give up his work. He actually needed to start his work, stay in his work, because he has such a powerful ministry to all the other people there. And I thought oh this guy should not quit work. He's got such a powerful ministry there.
Speaker 1:We better stop now before Yingyi says something else outrageous. Yingyi has been our guest and he is lead English pastor at the very expensive area of Milsons Point on Sydney's lower north shore. Carmel Vincent serves as training and events coordinator of the Ministry Training Strategy and Ian Carmichael well, he's I don't know retired 2IC Roving ambassador. Roving ambassador. Roving ambassador for Matthias Media. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been watching us on the Pastor's Heart this afternoon. Thanks for joining us and we'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
