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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Vaughan Roberts: Justin Welby’s rejection of Church of England teaching on sex
In a significant interview on the Rest is Politics Podcast England’s Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby, has denied the teaching of the bible, and the teaching of his church.
It is Archbishop Welby’s most public betrayal of his ordination and consecration vow to ‘banish error and to uphold and defend the truth taught in Scripture.’
Archbishop Welby’s comments came on the eve of an important House of Bishops meeting in the UK, which considered a request from a group called The Alliance, consisting of 2360 clergy whose churches represent 42% of the Church of England’s Sunday attendance, and who hold to the Bible’s teaching on sexuality.
They are asking for a separate orthodox province to be created within the Church of England.
Vaughan Roberts is the senior minister of St. Ebbe’s in Oxford, and is one of the signatories of the request from The Alliance.
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It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse in the Church of England, archbishop Justin Welby has done it again In a significant interview on the Rest Is Politics podcast. England's Archbishop of Canterbury has denied the teaching of the Bible and the teaching of his church. Archbishop Welby says sex should be in a committed relationship and it doesn't matter whether that relationship is straight or gay.
Speaker 2:All sexual activity should be within a committed relationship, and whether it's straight or gay.
Speaker 1:The statement by the Archbishop is a further betrayal of his ordination and consecration vow to banish error and to uphold and defend the truth taught in Scripture. Archbishop Welby made the comments on the eve of a meeting of the bishops of the Church of England. They met last Tuesday and Wednesday. As part of that meeting they considered an important letter from a conservative alliance within the Church of England, an alliance representing 2,360 English clergy, or 42% of the Church of England's Sunday attendance. The group is called the Alliance. It includes churches representing 53% of the Church of England's under 18 population. We've linked to their letter in the show notes, but the response of the bishops to that letter was disappointing.
Speaker 1:One of the signatories to the letter was Vaughan Roberts, the Senior Minister of St Ebbs in Oxford. He's a director of the Alliance. He's on the line from Oxford and we'll get to Archbishop Welby's about-face on sexuality in a moment. But I thought we might frame the discussion by stepping back and going to Lausanne or the big Lausanne Movement Conference in South Korea just a few weeks ago, a big gathering of 5,000 evangelical Christian leaders from all around the world meeting to think together about global plans for evangelism, and Vaughan was one of the keynote speakers of that conference and my friends who were present there told me that one of the conference highlights was Vaughan's address on the key topic of sexuality. Vaughan Roberts, on the line from Oxford. I wonder whether we could start this discussion at well at the Lausanne conference, and what did you tell the delegates there about sexuality?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, it was an amazing privilege to be there 220 countries, over 5,000 leaders, and I was asked to speak on sexuality and, as you know, it's a hugely controversial issue for different reasons around the world. So where do you start? And I didn't want to go to just one or two texts, so I thought biblical theology, what's the big picture? In just 15 minutes it's like an impossible task. So what I began with creation and God's good design and of course we in the West need to be encouraged to stick with that. And all the way through the Bible, god's teaching on sex doesn't waver. It's a man and a woman in the context of marriage for life. So that's where it began. But then a recognition of the fall. And we're in a messed up world and in the context of the fall, where we've all sinned we've all sinned sexually we need humility and compassion to deal with people where they're at, and sometimes we've not been very good pastually. We've been good at saying this is what the Bible teaches. But how do we help those for whom sex and sexuality is complex? And in that context, I spoke about my own experience of same-sex attraction and the need to be humble, not to point the finger at certain people as if they're the worst sinners and to recognize that in the room as we speak on these issues, wherever we are in the world, are those for whom there's challenge. And that was a challenging thing for some in the majority world, for whom often it's just hard to have a concept of someone like myself who would be open about the experience of same-sex attraction but absolutely wants to stick with the Bible's teaching. So I found myself in the unusual experience of being regarded as very conservative in the Western world but in the majority world. For some just a bit challenging, but I don't want to challenge the theology, but how? The majority world? For some just a bit challenging, but I don't want to challenge the theology. But how do we inhabit that partially?
Speaker 3:And then finally, there's something about Christ's redemption and revolution, and that's the revolution that should dominate our thinking, not the sexual revolution, how do we catch up with that? But rather how does Christ's revolution inform our attitude of the whole of life? And wonderfully, I just got a little mantra, very simple God is for sex, sex is for marriage, marriage is for life, and then life is for Christ. So that changes everything. It means marriage, human marriage is not the be all and end all. We're designed for a relationship with God, for a marriage with Christ that will last forever, and that relativizes marriage. It's a wonderful gift, but we don't absolutely have to be married. And it also, in the New Testament perspective, exalts singleness, because actually no single person is alone if they're in Christ. So how can we reflect Christ's revolution in our teaching and our pastoral practice? So it was a huge privilege to speak on these huge issues.
Speaker 1:Perhaps you could tell us a little bit now about some of the conversations you had after your presentation, both with, if you like, the person who was perhaps from the West and more theologically liberal than you, but also with the majority world person who was perhaps from the West and more theologically liberal than you, but also with the majority world person who was actually a little bit shocked by what you were saying from the main platform.
Speaker 3:Well, these are where the conversations I think need to be had is with those who are different from us, and we can learn from one another, and I think in the Western world there are those who are wavering, and I think it was strengthening for us to talk to those from other contexts for whom actually the Bible's very clear, and so some.
Speaker 3:There was great encouragement to me. Thank you for standing and for saying these things are clear For others. It was very helpful to have these pastoral conversations with those from the majority world who were reassured that I really am orthodox on these things. But to add a little bit of pastoral complexity how do we inhabit this? Because through the global media, the sexual revolution is traveling globally and I think increasingly those in the majority world are recognizing we need help to know how to inhabit this, because our younger people are being taught on these issues and their hearts have been grabbed on these issues by what they're seeing on the internet and that they want some help to think. Well, how do we hold firm to what the bible's saying but at the same time, recognize the complexity of life? So that was some useful conversations, but I think they're just beginning and there's a there's a long way to go to help one another in these areas, and I'd love to see that happening more and more.
Speaker 3:My own view is that to sort through these issues as a global church, we're going to need to start theologically with the doctrine of concupiscence and understanding that we all have wrong or distorted desires for sin all of us well, that's, that's a huge issue, um, but for those who don't know, the cupid's is saying that all our thoughts and desires are impacted by sin, and I think that's true, and so one of the things I was saying under the humility point on the fall is that that's true of all of us.
Speaker 3:So those who've only ever experienced attraction to the opposite sex should not be thinking well, we're the holy, godly ones and it's those who who experience same sex attraction, whether exclusively or occasionally, they are the wicked, sinful ones. No, we need to recognise sin has affected all of our sexuality and we all need to recognise what is the gift of God in our sexuality and what is the impact of the fall, and that's for everyone to engage with. So, yes, adoption of sin is significantly important, but just because we experience certain attractions doesn't mean to say that they've been given by God in creation, because all of us have been affected, and some people say that in the West. Well, for those who are, like myself, predominantly or exclusively same-sex attracted, this must be how God wants you to live. But actually, sin affects our desires. But that's true for all of us. I want the distress.
Speaker 1:Now, vaughan, it was just a few days after you got back to the UK from South Korea that the Archbishop of Canterbury, justin Welby, was on the Rest Is Politics podcast saying almost exactly the opposite things to what you'd been saying in South Korea. We have linked to the full interview in the show notes, but let's just play a section of that interview here. Let's now turn to gay sex.
Speaker 2:I do all the time really in the life of the church. And do you have a better answer yet? Yes, I do. You want me to give it? I'd love to hear what it is. You know this is, if there was an equivalent question, when tony blair was, uh, in office and he was in an interview, he was asked an equivalent question. You'd be standing in his line of sight going well, there's your me over there, he's. He's looking very relaxed. No, he's not.
Speaker 2:He always looks like that and what the archbishop of york and I and the bishops by a majority, by no means unanimous, and the church is deeply split over this where we've come to is to say that all sexual activity should be within a committed relationship, and whether it's straight or gay.
Speaker 2:In other words, we're not stopping the idea, we're not giving up on the idea that sex is within marriage or civil partnership, or whether marriage is civil or religious, and that, therefore, we've put forward a proposal that where people have been through a civil partnership or a same-sex marriage equal marriage under the 2014 Act they should be able to come along to a church and have a service of prayer and blessing for them in their lives together. So we accept that, as with all things in the Church of England, there's always a but, and there are some principles we're trying to work on. Is that, because of conscience, no one, no priest or church should be compelled to have these services? Now I think, personally, the services are this is a long way from church same-sex marriage, but there is no doubt that the church is deeply, profoundly divided on this you? You personally haven't. Are you doing those blessings?
Speaker 2:uh, I've said I won't out of responsibility for the um anglican communion where in many parts of the world it's absolutely and that's where you basically have to be a politician.
Speaker 4:This is where you have to be a politician, because you've got very different views in a very different church.
Speaker 2:You have you have countries around the world where people, even if they don't have it, want the death penalty for people who, as they say, are gay. There's less attention to the g, the b, etc. And you have countries where basically they it's legal and the church is involved in presiding at same-sex marriages. But we're saying no compulsion on anyone. Churches may opt into doing these. If they don't opt in, they don't do it and it is a simple service of welcome and blessing it. And it is a simple service of welcome and blessing and even that has resulted in an enormous breakdown of relationships in a really sad way, not only across the communion but in the church of england. For those who are conservative, we keep I am absolutely committed to them having a full and undoubted place in the Church of England. We're not a political party. We don't chuck out people who disagree, because it's God who brings people to faith and every Christian is a brother or sister in Christ. Including people who want the death penalty for being gay.
Speaker 2:Yes, I may disagree with them and say they're wrong. But you might disagree with members of your family and say they're wrong, but they're still your family. And you might really disagree with them passionately, but they're still your family and Christians are a family.
Speaker 1:That is the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, speaking to Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart. On the Rest is Politics podcast. Vaughan Roberts is on the line with us from Oxford. Vaughan, what is your reaction to what the Archbishop of Canterbury was saying there?
Speaker 3:Well, In one sense it's not a surprise that that's his personal view, but it is extraordinary that someone in his role should think it's appropriate, if it is that his personal view, to say so. I mean, at a consecration, a bishop is asked to ask the question will you teach the doctrine of the Church of England as the doctrine of Christ as the Church of England has received it, and will you refute error and the doctrine of Christ as the Church of England has received? It? Is very clear it is the traditional teaching of the church, which is the apostolic teaching, that held by the church throughout the world and down the ages, that the place for sex is in the marriage of a man and a woman.
Speaker 3:So here we have the leader of the Church of England saying I don't agree with the Church of England's doctrine, and not only did I agree, but the majority of the House of Bishops don't agree. And then that reassurance of no doubt it's genuine he's saying at the end look, I want to let me reassure those who still hold to the traditional view. There's a place for you in the Church of England. That's extraordinary to me, that I need to be, that the Archbishop feels he needs to reassure me that me and very many thousands like me in the Church of England still have a place in the Church of England, but we're the ones who still hold to the teaching of the Church of England. So it's just increased the crisis that we were already in.
Speaker 1:I've been reading a number of conservative leaders saying essentially Archbishop Welby, if you're not prepared to hold to your ordination vows, then you should resign.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a certain logic in that, but I'm not sure it's terribly helpful to focus there, because the Archbishop's about to retire anyway and I can't believe he's going to resign and so. But there's a logic to that. If you don't hold to the teaching of the church you're leading, that's you know why you continue to lead it. And certainly if you don't believe it, then you need to argue, and bishops are not those who should be arguing for change in the doctrine. They are called to hold it, teach it, preserve it and refute error.
Speaker 1:Now Vaughan Archbishop Welby raised the issue of criminality. What is your comment on the criminality issue?
Speaker 3:Well, the general point he's making there is an obvious one that there's a huge cultural difference in the Anglican communion from contexts where you can't even dare challenge elements of the LGBT agenda and others where, as he says, there's criminalisation and pull for the death penalty and so on. I'm certainly not at all in favour. I'll put it stronger I'm very much against criminalisation, especially when it's targeted against one particular group or one particular sexual sin, but not others. But I feel the importance of being wary of just wading in into these kind of issues without great sensitivity, that there's been a far too much cultural imperialism, far too many arrogant assumptions that we are right and they are wrong, and they are primitive, and often characterizations which are not fair of what is going on in other contexts. So we've got to be very careful. I'm not in favor, but I love being part of an English communion where we will have, in our different contexts, different strengths, different weaknesses, different things. We see clearly different blind spots.
Speaker 3:And I think Lambeth 110, the 1998 Lambeth statement, was a great example of the global communion listening to scripture, submitting to scripture and listening to one another. And I'm, along with the Alliance, passionately committed to both elements of Lambeth 110. And what you've got there is a theological statement that sex is for the marriage of one man and one woman and outside of that there should be abstinence. But it's also a very strong pastoral statement which condemns, to use the language of the time, the irrational fear of homosexuals, recognises that there are people who are semi-sex attracted in our churches, encourages us to listen to, support and encourage and, very sadly, the Western western church, many of them ignored the theological affirmation and, given that, going away from scripture, they're hardly in a position to be heard in encouraging that.
Speaker 3:This more pastoral approach and one of the great advantages within the global south fellowship, the gaffgon fellowship, where we've got people committed to the theology, we are able to have these important conversations and they are beginning. I should say. The person I've got in mind is the younger version of me and there I was as a young man, just conscious of same-sex attractions and not knowing what to do with them, wanting them to go away, and I want Christians like me all over the world to be in contexts where they feel actually I could speak to a pastor about this, and the whole sort of background of criminalization doesn't make it easy. It actually makes it very, very hard for people to speak. So I think that there are conversations that are beginning to be had, that's why I?
Speaker 3:was at Lausanne and we're having those conversations, but they need to be respectful and a recognition. We don't have all the answers and we must be very careful in how we speak to those in other contexts, but I and the whole of the Alliance are passionately committed to both elements of Land with One Ten.
Speaker 1:I'm just looking at Lambeth 110, and I just looked that up before our conversation and we'll link to it in the show notes. It is from 30 years ago but it's so helpful.
Speaker 3:Yes, it really is. It's 26 years, but still it's a long time ago and I think those conversations were beginning to be had. And, unfortunately, because revisionist Western churches ignored that theological statement and went ahead anyway, against the wishes of the communion, it's not surprising that those conversations haven't continued to be had. We need each other. We in the West need the warm, passionate commitment to orthodoxy of the majority world, and we're facing issues related to the secular revolution that are going to hit the global communion as well, and we've got things to offer there as well. We need one another.
Speaker 1:Going back to the Rest is Politics interview. I was surprised that Archbishop Welby said quote I need to be a politician here, quote.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, that's one of the confusions we've got within the Church of England. I've heard bishops say well, we've got to catch up because we are the established church and we can't be out of touch with the world because otherwise it won't work as the established church. Now, that's not a logical or appropriate position. Yes, we are an established church by accident of history, but that doesn't mean to say that it's our role as the established church to reflect what the culture and community is saying. The church, from its origins, is called to be counter-cultural and we need to be speaking prophetically, not just reflecting what the world is saying. So, first and foremost, an archbishop or a bishop and indeed a pastor like myself is not a politician but a servant of Christ and called to live and uphold the teaching of Christ.
Speaker 1:Vaughan, I'm looking now at the letter that's been sent by the group called the Alliance, to the House of Bishops last week. We've linked to that in the show notes and you're expressing strong concern at their direction. You're one of seven signatories representing 2,360 clergy. Just for those who don't know what is the Alliance and what are you trying to do, Thank you.
Speaker 3:The Alliance very simply represents those who want to continue to uphold the teaching of the Church of England on these matters and are very, very concerned about the direction of travel that the House of Bishops has been leading us in. The Church of England Evangelical Council is already a network representing a very wide variety of evangelical groups within the Church of England, from Conservative Renew, for instance, to Charismatic, the New Wine Movement, and then on top of that the Alliance also includes the HDB network of churches and some traditional Catholics, so it's a broad grouping of the Orthodox.
Speaker 3:Who's saying look here we stand, this is, we haven't shifted, and we are very, very concerned about the direction of travel.
Speaker 1:So that's who the alliance is. What you're arguing for in the letter is more or less the same thing that I remember you telling me on the pastor's heart when you were in Sydney 18 months ago that you're arguing for a separate province where, effectively, the conservatives, the Bible people and the traditional Catholics won't come under the jurisdiction or, if you like, the false teaching bishop, but will come under a separate province, separate episcopacy. How has the letter been received by the bishops as it was presented to their meeting last week?
Speaker 3:Well, from the beginning we're saying these are not second order issues and first order difference requires first order differentiation. So that's in essence what's going on here, and there's still ongoing discussion that, as bishops have always said, we'll need to give some kind of provision for those who, in conscience, can't go along with this. But that process has really not got anywhere. So, even though we're still charging down the direction of blessings for same-sex unions, a clear trajectory towards same-sex marriage for clergy and standalone services kind of pseudo-marriage services for same-sex couples, we've not had any real details about settlement and some kind of offer and anything that's been on the table that the bishops have discussed has been very much of a second order. So basically they've dismissed it.
Speaker 3:Many have said look, you don't really represent very many, it's just a few leaders and most people don't really agree with you and don't think you'll get anything like this. You're going to get much, much less. If anything, it will be a second-order differentiation. So I don't think they've really heard how many of us are out there and how seriously we hold this. We can't accept less than what we're asking for.
Speaker 1:I was surprised, therefore, to read the news articles coming out of the meeting, which didn't actually even deal with the content of your letter at all.
Speaker 3:It was almost as if you hadn't written it, and yet it's 42% of the church writing saying this 42% of the church writing saying this yes, so far we've had an opportunity to speak privately with archbishops and bishops, but the kind of negotiation that we think needs to happen hasn't really begun on the terms of which we're saying look here we are.
Speaker 3:This is where we stand and this is not some arbitrary principle. It flows from theological convictions and a deep concern to preserve the unity of the church. We need to stress that we're accused of being the schismatics, but actually the direction that the bishop is taking us is has already riven the church apart, has caused a complete reset in the Anglican communion and we're saying no. We need to stay united with the global Orthodox Anglican church and the majority, vast majority of Christians down the ages and throughout the world, and if we are to preserve that unity, we need a distinct place, as it were. We can't continue to move together in an undifferentiated way.
Speaker 1:Do you think that their strategy is just to wait till you've run out of puff and you get exhausted? Give up and leave?
Speaker 3:It's very hard to know. I wouldn't be surprised if there are those who think this will fall apart. These are groupings that haven't normally worked together and they'll divide, and I really don't think that we will. I mean, one of the delights has been the warmth of fellowship. This is not just a marriage of convenience. As those who are committed to the traditional teaching of the church, those who love Christ, we found a deep fellowship with one another and we're committed to staying together, and a deep fellowship with our Anglican brothers and sisters around the world, and we're determined to stay in unity with them, and so we're not going to fall apart. I'm confident of that. But I suspect there are those who think this won't hold. There's not that many of them.
Speaker 1:I suppose, if you look over to the United States, looking at what is happening there, well, 15 years ago we saw the Episcopal Church formally abandon the teaching of Christ on these issues of sexuality and the formation of the Anglican Church of North America. And well, now we'd say the Anglican Church of North America. And well now we'd say the Anglican Church of North America is a diverse group of people with diverse thinking, in the same way that your alliance group in the United Kingdom is a diverse group of people with diverse thinking. And yet the Anglican Church in North America has managed to hold together effectively for 10 years, 15 years, and has grown really, while the Episcopal Church has fallen to pieces in the same period.
Speaker 3:Exactly that Some of us have been saying. Look across at the Atlantic. We've got to avoid an Episcopal-style train crash which has led to a complete split with, as you say, a very large grouping of Orthodox Anglicans who are now completely separate from the Episcopal Church, and the cost has been massive, emotionally, spiritually, missionally, and there's been too many. So that would never happen here, but actually there's a stronger Orthodox grouping here in the Church of England, and so it's. This is the direction we're heading in, and what we're saying is please find a way of preventing this. The best way is to stop this direction of travel and to repent, and if that's not happening, then to discuss with the alliance and to serious negotiation about how we can ensure that there is a distinct orthodox grouping that remains with integrity. Otherwise we're heading for a major slip, which I don't think anyone wants. It would be disastrous for us, not least missionally.
Speaker 1:So what happens now? The Church of England bishops have met and publicly it seems like they're basically ignoring you. I mean, I'm imagining your friends who are at the meeting, who are bishops, ringing up saying I'm disappointed, we lost. Where do we go from here?
Speaker 3:Well, it's worth saying, first of all, that there's a variety of bishops and one of the encouragements down the road is, whereas there were only four who voted against the original general senate from the House of Bishops, as time has passed, more and more have expressed their dismay, and there's quite a large group of over 30, I believe Orthodox bishops who are meeting, and of those, a smaller number have been very avert in their support of the Alliance, and so that's encouraging, encouraging. Where do we go from here? Well before general synod last july, the alliance wrote a letter saying if this direction of travel is continued with, the alliance will be forced to set up what we call then a de facto province, and there's been some discussion. What does that actually means? I mean, we can't set up a legal province. That's something only General Synod and ultimately the House of Parliament can set up. But we can say we're going to function as if this was the case. So we will not be in communion. Our communion will be impaired with bishops who are leading down this direction. Communion our communion will be impaired with bishops who are leading down this direction.
Speaker 3:We'll be encouraging churches to be putting their money to support Orthodox ministry, and not in an undifferentiated way. We're encouraging pastors to to say actually I need alternative spiritual oversight, and that there's a panel of alternative spiritual overseers that's been set up. So that's what's already begun effectively, this kind of de facto proto-provincial arrangements, and that will continue. I think One of the things we're going to do is set up a pipeline for Orthodox ordinands, because there's been a crisis, not surprisingly, of recruitment. Many orthodox ordinands are saying, or potential ordinands, why would I commit myself to a church? Um, but I don't know where it's going, I don't know if I've got a place for for me and can I enter this with integrity. And so we're determined, as a very early action is to set up a, an orthodox pipeline for orthodox Anglican ministry.
Speaker 3:That's a vital priority, so we're going to carry on doing that, while, at the same time, always be willing to be in discussion. We're always willing to negotiate, but it will be on the terms of what we've set out, which is not simply a negotiating position. It flows from conviction. We want the Church of England to flourish. We're not the a negotiated position. It flows from conviction. We want the Church of England to flourish. We're not the wreckers here. We're not schismatics. We want an option that will preserve unity. We're ready to talk to anyone.
Speaker 1:How can a young bloke sign allegiance, a young bloke going into ministry sign allegiance or declare allegiance to a bishop like Justin Welby, who has just flip-flopped like this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. The reality is, officially, the Church of England teaching still remains the same, and that's what we want to say that even though a bishop and an archbishop have said they don't believe it, the official teaching of the Church of England is still the same. So we're convinced we can stay with integrity. But it's not as if nothing's happened. It is affecting our relationships, it is impairing communion and that's why we need to continue to put flesh on the bones of this de facto proto province.
Speaker 1:Well, vaughan Roberts, we will continue to pray for you. Vaughan Roberts, thank you for speaking to us on the Pastor's Heart today. Thank you, dominic Vaughan Roberts has been my guest. He is the Senior Minister of St Ebbs in Oxford and a leading director of the Alliance Movement within the Church of England. My name is Dominic Steele and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon on the Pastor's Heart.
