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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on Facebook then available in video on our website <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">http://www.thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Leading up as a ministry team member - with Peter Blanch, Megan Stevens and Michael Davies
How do you work in a team excellently with those above you in ministry?
How do you as a team member take responsibility for the success of your church?
What can ministry team members do well to help the whole team function better?
What mistakes do team members make? And what about confidentiality on team?
Michael Davies is associate pastor of Lighthouse Church in Gorokan, NSW.
Megan Stevens serves at Vine Church in Surry Hills in Sydney.
Peter Blanch is a ministry consultant with Reach Australia
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It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And how do you work in a team excellently with those above you? In ministry they call it leading up. What can ministry team members do well to help the whole team function better? It's an episode today for ministry team members. Michael Davis is with us. He's an associate pastor at Lighthouse Church in Gorican, megan Stevens is with us from Vine Church in Surrey Hills in Sydney and Pete Blanche from Reach Australia. Pete, let's start with you and your pastor's heart on this, for actually the biggest pain in ministry happens really when teams don't function well together.
Speaker 2:I think that's right, dominic. We only have so much emotional energy to go around and we really want that energy focused in on the people we're actively trying to shepherd, including those who are in our ministry teams particularly. But when teams aren't functioning well, it's amazing how much energy is taken up with worrying, being anxious, trying to fix or work on a dysfunctional, not not firing, relationship, leaving actually the rest of the flock you're trying to shepherd. We kind of left over energy, pastoral energy, pastoral emotional energy, and so my heart really does bleed for churches where there are teams and it can be staff teams or it might be high-level volunteers as well but just where teams really are not thriving, where sometimes there's a lack of clarity, where sometimes there's just a we're not quite getting on like we ought to and it just affects the whole church, not just the people in the team.
Speaker 1:Megan, I guess you go to assistant ministers' conferences and hear from peers. It's not working.
Speaker 3:We can create messes for ourselves, can't we? I think the thing about functioning well in a team in churches, is that it takes a lot of trust, and so actually building that trust becomes a core part of what we do together. You think about I know that lots of people have looked into Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team and you start thinking about those things that mean that teams don't work.
Speaker 3:Thinking about those things that mean that teams don't work they actually can be things that are really easy to see fall apart in churches, and so trust becomes a huge factor that we have to think about in the way that we interact with each other. We have to think about what it is that means that we can work together well and get past that norming storming, forming into the performing, so that we're actually flourishing in our churches.
Speaker 1:Yeah, michael, they call it leading up. What is leading up?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I mean, you have this interesting dynamic as a second chair leader, where, well, what is a second?
Speaker 4:chair leader, a second chair leader, yeah, yeah, so when you're a two, I seat when you're not the senior leader, and this is, you know, in any organisation there's somebody above you leading you, and then there's people beneath you. You're leading them and you sit in the middle. Some people call it like the subordinate paradox, and leading up is where you are trying to helpfully influence your leader. So if you're a volunteer in a church, you can lead up to your pastor, and if you're an associate pastor or a 2IC of any kind, you're able to lead up in influencing your boss, and that looks like all kinds of things. There's healthy ways of doing that and there's really unhealthy ways of doing that as well.
Speaker 1:How do we do it well? How do we do it badly?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean just thinking about the heart issues first and foremost. In ministry, senior leaders have, you know, temptations in regards to identity issues, and two ICs or second chair leaders have their own set of heart issues to work through. So we need to be and I'm not perfect in this, but we need to be really secure in our walk with the Lord, our identities in Christ, so that as I bring an idea to my boss, as I try to lead the ministry, I'm leading, but, you know, within the vision that my boss has set, I'm okay. It's all right if my ideas aren't accepted. It's all right if my input is, you know, heard but then left aside because my identity is secure in Christ. I also need to trust the sovereignty of God, that he loves his church more than I ever will, and so that means sometimes things are out of my control because I'm not the senior leader, I can't make the final call on everything, but I need to trust God, in his sovereignty, that he will bring about good in whatever way that looks like. So there's some hard issues that we have to work on, I think, as a first step, and then there's very practical, helpful ways to lead up, influence your boss.
Speaker 4:Part of it is around the attitude that you have. One thing that I've found really helpful, just personally, is trying to think of the difference between a critical spirit or a critical attitude and being a critical thinker. So I think a good senior leader will want you, as a second chair leader, to be a good critical thinker. That is, you are seeing church, you are seeing what's going on and you're thinking. You're genuinely invested in the outcomes of the ministry and you're thinking critically and you're bringing new ideas and you're bringing helpful feedback in healthy ways, but you're not doing it with a critical spirit. You're not bringing it with anarchy attitude. You're not consistently nitpicking. You are trying to be a positive force in a staff team. There's some initial thoughts.
Speaker 2:That's a hard issue, isn't it? Because one of the dangers in a second chair role is competing with your first chair. It's a disaster if a first chair competes with their second chair or a second chair competes with their first chair. But they are hard issues, isn't it? If you haven't got your identity in Christ sorted, you end up thinking like, if I am competing with my senior leader, am I a better preacher than them? Or does the church family love them more than they love me? Is my ministry the best ministry here so that I get all the credit? But that's a hard issue. I think, going on, what a second chair leader really needs to bring is such a secure identity in Christ that, with their senior leader, that they then pursue the gospel kingdom, pursue the kingdom of God as of first importance, and they leave that competitive spirit behind because they actually then go. Well, how can I really as together? Because at one level they're both second-tier leaders, because Jesus is always in the first tier, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and so they both know what it should be like to be in that second-tier role. But there's that together we're not competing with each other. We are genuinely in partnership seeking, and always that's the hard issue. First and foremost, that a first cheerleader and a second cheerleader both need to have right in place.
Speaker 3:That alignment is really important, isn't it? Making sure that you're both on track towards the same thing, which is the glory of Jesus, making sure that you're both heading towards actually the growth of God's church? And I had a really helpful saying in thinking about this that it's important to make sure you are being a funnel, not a filter, because when we are competing with our leaders, it's easy to be a filter and only pass on certain bits of information to sort of seek the outcomes that we want for ourselves. But if you're a funnel, you're radically honest about the things that matter. You can leave out the things that don't. You can actually help, support your leader to be doing the best they can with what God's given them in terms of ministry and seeing great outcomes from that, which means that we can actually then be working towards that goal together and see it's flourishing. So I think that's a really helpful thing to think about being a funnel, not a filter.
Speaker 3:And there's lots of self-management that has to go on in that. Thinking about the heart issue, that goes on. You're managing your own emotions. You're managing in your mind what's important, bringing the important things to bear to the table. You're managing your own time and energy, You're managing the relationships that are going on around you. But yeah, emotional management, I think, is often a big one in our churches, thinking about how we're building relationships as well.
Speaker 1:What kind of helpful things and unhelpful things can second chair leaders do in those situations?
Speaker 4:One of the dynamics that exists is if you're a second chair leader, you are in touch with the congregation of a church in a different way than the senior pastor is, so you might know more of what's going on People will come and have more clear grumbles to you Potentially. Yeah, potentially. I think that's part of your role is to manage those conversations really well. How do we do Give us stories of somebody? Who's done it well somebody who's done it badly, when you've done it well.
Speaker 4:So if I'm doing it well, when you've done it well and when you've done it badly, yeah, so if I'm doing it well, I'm trying to hear people well, so I'm genuinely listening to whatever issue they might have, and I want them to feel heard, but not necessarily feel like I've agreed with them, because if it is about my boss or something that my boss oversees, then I want to be an ally to him and I want to show honour and respect to him. And so this is delicate balance of trying to genuinely listen to people but not go away from that conversation thinking or having them think that you agree with everything they've just said.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but also and that you're an ally with them against the bit yeah yeah, but you've also got to not necessarily push back a whole heap in that conversation, because there is a bit of triangulation going on where really it would be better if they go and talk to. You know my boss, and that's what I'll try and encourage people to do. It doesn't always work, but what about?
Speaker 1:you, Megan? Have you been in that situation too?
Speaker 3:Definitely doesn't always work. But what about you? Have you been in that situation too? Definitely, I think, as a second chair leader.
Speaker 3:Often people come to you with their grumbles and gripes and it is important, like Michael said, to direct them to the source, to direct them to the right person for their complaints or, yeah, the things that they're unhappy about. I think a big thing is thinking about how we interact with those people and hear them and hear out their struggles. We also need to make sure we protect our lead pastors in terms of their time, because lead pastoring is quite a very time consuming role, and so in a second chair position, actually part of our role is kind of as their inner circle, to help them have their time protected, because we're kind of like their right hand in that way. So, thinking about how can we actually help in that situation? What is it that might hinder, but what is it that we can do to help? One thing might be directing them to the right person for their complaints or their worries, but actually is there anything that we can do to help the scenario, say, a structural issue or an organisational issue?
Speaker 3:that we might be able to actually have influence on, because influence works in that 360 degree way. We're not only influencing the people who are under us us, but we're also influencing up in terms of leaders.
Speaker 1:What about the spouse of a second chair? Leader what can, what can the spouse of a second chair leader do? That's either helpful or unhelpful, because, yeah, yeah again start with you, michael, yeah yeah, yeah, I think similar things.
Speaker 4:I think, if they, I've never put that in a job description when I've appointed someone and yet a spouse can be super helpful or not helpful, yeah yeah, yeah, I guess it's a bit trickier for them because they're not in the team meetings and the team environment to build that trust that Meg was talking about, and so there is a sense in which they sit on the outside but they are privy to more information about church and church people and church things than the regular church member is. So I think for a spouse, that same work of being able to listen really well and hear about people's concerns and be an encouragement and a positive force in some way, but again trying to manage it so that if it's a genuine grievance, that it gets funneled into the right place and the right people hear about it, and the spouse of an associate pastor is possibly not the best person to be absorbing all of that and so sort of a bit of deflection, wisely, you know, with compassion and genuine listening.
Speaker 4:But yeah, that is tricky.
Speaker 3:It's a tricky one, isn't it? Because I think in many stereotypical evangelical Anglican churches, I want to say but all kinds of churches you have the pastor's wife, who is the person who people go to with all kinds of information With a grumble or the assistant pastor's wife?
Speaker 3:Yes, even about her own husband, which can be quite tricky. I call my husband lovingly the pastor's wife. He's the pastor's wife in our scenario and it's quite tricky. It is quite tricky. I grew up in a ministry home and lots of people would come to my mum with the gripes about what they wanted to see my dad doing, as if they weren't willing to have that difficult conversation or a conversation that might actually involve some emotional toll in terms of saying a hard thing in love, hopefully. So it can be quite difficult when people, I guess, go to the wrong place with their grumbles and gripes, and learning how to be the ministry spouse in that situation direct people to the right places. I think this might sound gendered, but, particularly for women, very, very easy to fall into that gossip train, and making sure we don't fall into that trap but instead go to the right places with that information help people to see that actually things function better when we're sharing the right information with the right people.
Speaker 2:Motives can be pure and impure at all sorts of points in this moment but the pure motive person doing this is actually it's their attempt to lead up. They might be doing it the wrong way and going through triangulation to pull it off, but there's probably something that's concerning them in the ministry that they're doing and they're attempting to lead up. You've obviously got to watch the inappropriate motive at that point as well. What?
Speaker 4:you can do as the second chair leader is take that and be helpful or unhelpful in how you tell your senior this is what's happening, because you might choose to go. Oh, you know what? I think that's just a grumble. They're having a bad day. I'm not going to do anything with that, I've heard them out. Or you might go Hmm, that sounds, that sounds fair and that sounds like my boss would really want to know that this person's feeling this or that this is happening and you can. I can think of really simple ways that you can do that badly. You can go to your boss and you can say hey, I think everyone's feeling like dot dot dot. People are saying dot, dot, dot dot. It's much better to go, and it's a little tricky when you may not have permission, but it's much better to go. Look, pete is a bit upset. Here's what he's told me. I wonder if there's something to what he's saying. Maybe others he's saying others are feeling it. Even that's a triggering statement because for a senior, who are the others?
Speaker 4:But you know what I mean. You can have those helpful conversations where there is a flow of helpful information going up. It's honest, it's helpful, it's healthy, and then that can help senior pastor to lead because they otherwise would not have heard about what's actually happening in a ministry area.
Speaker 2:And there's a critical piece there, which is the senior pastor or the lead pastor actually will set the tone to make it possible to lead up.
Speaker 2:If the senior leader is often defensive and wanting to not and hears everything as massive criticism and everyone doesn't like me you'll create an environment where actually it's really difficult to lead up because everything will be heard as criticism. This is the pastor's heart moment is that where the second chair leaders and the first chair leaders both have their identity very clearly in Christ. It then can create an environment where leading up will not be received in the wrong way. Of course it can be completely overdone and it is always misread or maybe over-communicated and done poorly, and maybe it is criticism and so care needs to be taken. But I think a senior leader as well as a team member both need to take responsibility to have an environment of non-defensiveness, because we're in this for the cause of the gospel and the best idea in our it needs to win and if we need to hear some critical feedback, that's okay. We can change. But it's hard to build that environment and maintain it, but it is absolutely key for leading from the second chair leading up.
Speaker 3:Without that context it's very hard to do it, and openness to feedback is a critical piece there. Yeah, and openness to receive feedback and also learning how to. I think, as a second chair leader, learning how to give good feedback. It's a skill, it's an acquired skill, it's something we have to work at.
Speaker 3:I think I have to give a shout out to my boss, toby, because he is excellent at asking for feedback and actually asking us to tell him when something didn't go great or when maybe he could have entered a situation better, and so, actually, as a leader whether it's first or second chair having an openness to receive feedback, in that you're inviting people to reflect on conversations on various areas of ministry, particularly those relational pieces, to help you figure out what it is that could actually be being done better, what might have more impact. That's a really fundamental piece in terms of helping churches flourish and also building trust. It builds lots of trust when you can open.
Speaker 2:The best time to get feedback is when you invite it right. It's the unsolicited feedback when you're not ready for it, where you're probably not, it catches you off guard and you can respond in all the wrong way. I think in an environment where there is, where there's regular asking for feedback actually gives permission for people to lead up.
Speaker 4:And that creates further trust, because it's a moment of vulnerability. If you're saying, guys, tell me how you would have done that differently or how did you think that went, because I'm not too sure. That's a very vulnerable thing for anyone to ask.
Speaker 4:That in turn builds further trust. If you just start doing it off the cuff and you've never done it before I reckon everyone will just sit in silence. They probably won't want to step out. But if you do it consistently, you can imagine an environment where feedback goes both ways freely and you have the foundation of trust. And when we're talking about trust, we're not talking about I trust that you'll do what you said you would do. We're talking about the kind of relational trust where I know that you are for me and I am for you as we work together for the cause of the gospel.
Speaker 3:here it's an allegiance, isn't it? Yeah, it's actually partnering together towards a common goal, and we keep halfing on about trust, but I think it's because if there is no trust in a team, people are far less willing to share good ideas, to share creative thinking, to share, I guess, ideas when it comes to problem solving, and so your ministry team will be far less effective and productive in terms of what it is they're working towards. So the foundation of trust and actually a brotherly love with each other, is a really important factor in terms of thinking about how your team might thrive and get through lots of hard situations.
Speaker 1:I'm sure Talk to me about confidentiality because you said something, michael, a minute or two ago about the confidentiality of the conversation you'd had with the congregation member and whether or not you felt it would have been a breach to share that with the senior pastor, whereas I've always thought I want to say to my team member your primary confidentiality relationship is with me you know, as your employer.
Speaker 3:you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But just let's have a little play around. What you guys, what do you advise people?
Speaker 3:to do as a search consultant.
Speaker 1:Tell us, tell us, pete, oh, we'll tell you, and then we'll get these guys to be vulnerable about what they do.
Speaker 2:I was thinking it's not reducing someone's agency. So I think the danger with someone coming to a second-tier leader as a means to get to a senior leader, the danger there is a triangulation where often they ought to go and approach the senior leader themselves. I think seeking people's permission if you think this is something that's worthy of talking to your senior leader, seeking permission from them to talk to them in advance is probably the right way to go. But I don't want to reduce that person's responsibility or agency. If there's an issue that they have with a senior leader and they are triangulating, I want to reduce that triangle and so take responsibility and speak to them yourself. They're not that scary, they're willing to hear about this. Maybe you could set up the meeting or something like this. But at that level I'd really want to increase that person's agency so that they take responsibility and Rich is really just being mature and talking to a leader in advance.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'd agree with that, and sometimes, if they don't then want to take that responsibility and move forward with it, I actually just let it wash over me and I move on. But if it's a huge issue I might think differently. But if it's what I would consider a minor gripe about something, I think that's part of a second chair leader's role is to absorb some of that hold on not necessarily hold on to, but I guess bear the weight of some negativity or even just bear the weight of pastoral issues that they can't share with anyone and be okay sitting in that place. Obviously you have to have a vibrant walk with the Lord yourself to be able to bear that burden but that is, I think, a helpful part of your role, yeah.
Speaker 3:I was going to add to that. I think a really important thing is the agency you spoke about, Pete, involves a lead pastor, the first chair, actually giving their staff the agency over the areas they're responsible for. It can be very easy for ministries to silo when, to get stuck behind obstacles when actually that leader is not necessarily entrusting an area to the person who has been hired to do it, and so that creates all kinds of blockages. It also is when the second chair leader maybe has some anxieties about what it is they're trying to execute or lacks that identity in Christ, doesn't have that full confidence in what it is they're trying to achieve.
Speaker 3:We have to make sure that there is that trust and a certain level of handing over responsibility to leaders for what it is that they've been entrusted to do, trusting the Lord's sovereignty over it first and foremost, but making sure that actually in a team the people who are involved are involved because they've been placed there for a reason.
Speaker 3:So in our team it's not a huge staff team I'm primarily responsible for children's ministry and obviously with that there's confidentiality around safe ministry and those types of things, and making sure only the people who need to be involved in certain situations are pulled in is a really important thing, because the whole, the whole team does not need to know about someone's family situation, where it is a private matter. But making sure the right people do know is important when it comes to safety, so things like that can be a really great. But making sure the right people do know is important when it comes to safety, so things like that can be a really great example. But it may even just be pulling the right people in on a care issue. The whole staff team doesn't need to know when someone is struggling in a particular way.
Speaker 1:What do you do when somebody says to you maybe another woman says I'm going to tell you something, but don't tell Dominic or don't tell Toby.
Speaker 3:in your case, what do you do?
Speaker 1:in that situation.
Speaker 3:I think often it's really important to clarify with that person that you cannot, you can't, promise that to them. In some instances you may be able to say it depends what it is that you're about to tell me, and sometimes it is important to keep that between you and the person, maybe asking their permission to tell someone else in certain instances if you feel it's beyond your level of expertise or what you can actually support them with. Yeah, I think being clear with the person is very important because often when we get into sticky situations is when we're not honest with the person and information is spread where it shouldn't be or where it wasn't supposed to be. That's when people can get really hurt. So, being important about the honesty piece, being clear about that honesty piece and making sure that if someone wants you to keep it to yourself, clarifying, I'll need to know what it is before. What do you think, dominic, you're about to ask?
Speaker 4:me. If you're the senior leader and one of your staff team has that kind of conversation. What do you feel like you want from?
Speaker 1:your staff member. What I want is I want to. I don't want to know every detail of who is going out with who and who would like to go out with who, unless it's your own daughter, right. I cannot cope with that information and actually it's none of my business that information. But I've said to my team if you're not sure whether or not you should tell me, then tell me.
Speaker 3:You probably should, you probably should, you probably should.
Speaker 1:And I don't want to discover. Some pastoral thing blows up and you knew about it four months ago and you had decided not to tell me because you've actually made a decision at that point to prioritise your confidentiality relationship with that person over your confidentiality relationship with that person over your confidentiality relationship with me, and actually you're here to help me. You know that's your job, yeah.
Speaker 3:It can be quite tricky in a pastoral role because I don't know if you guys might maybe this is a female thing but sometimes you find out things not necessarily because you are the one who has told them, but because people have filtered information back to you about another person, and so that can be quite tricky, particularly because, I think, when it comes to being employed in ministry, sometimes in terms of the hard things that are going on in their life, maybe even in particular sin people are not as forthcoming with you as a staff member all the time, and so working out how to gently and lovingly approach those conversations, without it being that you've just heard something on the gossip train, can be quite tricky.
Speaker 3:Um, but important then to have those care conversations in place. And actually, um, it can be really hard to have those conversations where you are, um, looking to delve deep into someone's life and hoping that you've built trust with them, even if they're not on a staff team, that you've built enough trust and relational rapport with them that when you ask them questions, they will be honest and forthcoming with you, so that you are in a discipleship relationship where you're hopefully helping them grow to love Jesus more.
Speaker 1:I think perhaps the other thing is many of my staff over the years have been juniors you know, and so um. I can't train them in how to handle a complex pastoral situation if they don't tell me what the complex pastoral situation is and maybe they've been friends with the people they're pastoring before they've even been on a staff team.
Speaker 3:I know that was my experience and so there's a hard dynamic there where you've raised up leaders from within, where actually there's a pre-existing relationship before that person was on a pastoral staff team, where actually, yeah, the dynamic is a tricky one to play at.
Speaker 1:Building a wall and building a bridge as a 2IC.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so it's just thinking about it in terms of relationship.
Speaker 1:I guess you're talking about wall between you and the boss and you and the other team members.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah yeah, part of that is just actually being a loving Christian brother or sister. So I think it's possible, maybe to do ministry together with your sort of employment hat on, and then treat everyone in the staff team, including your boss, as though this is purely a working relationship and nothing more. I guess, even as Christians, even if that was the case, we should still be showing love, and so there's a way that you can just build. It doesn't need to be a strong friendship, although it might be, but just a good, healthy relationship by actually taking an interest in your boss. What are their ministry priorities right now and how can you be helpful rather than what do I want to get done, and how can you be helpful rather than what do I want to get done and how can they be helpful to me?
Speaker 4:Pulling in the same direction together rather than you know Meg mentioned silos rather than sort of thinking of your area of church as the most important thing, thinking what is my boss concerned about right now? What is our strategic plan for the next 12 months? How can I be a good, helpful contributor to that? And some of that is actually just straight up asking about the priorities that you have at the moment. If you're not aware of them, ask and then try and be helpful to. It's not sitting around going, hey boss, I've got nothing to do. How can I help you with something? Um, but it might be actually aligning some of your um, your area's priorities, with your boss's overall priorities, um, and they'll notice that yeah, I reckon it highlights, michael.
Speaker 2:one of the things that a first chair leader, what a senior leader, needs from a second chair leader, is that the second chair leader needs to be really deep, really engaged in their own area of responsibility, and so all over it, all over the initiatives that are needed, all over the details how it's going, what needs to change.
Speaker 3:Agitating for it.
Speaker 2:Agitating for it, championing it absolutely, and so they've got this deep care for that work they're responsible for. But church is an ecosystem and so but the second chair leader needs to care for the health of the whole ecosystem, not just their part in it, and in fact they need to care more for the ecosystem of church, just slightly bit more than actually their particular part in it, because that's actually what will really help the whole staff team, the whole leadership team, thrive, because sometimes that's where it's a hard issue, isn't it going?
Speaker 2:my area next year and our strategic plans Lots of churches are thinking through next year already right now. But there might be a second-tier leader who goes. I really want all these resources and all this time and effort put into my area because I love it so much. But I can see the whole thing. The whole ecosystem needs more energy over here. Because I care more about the whole. I'll be willing to have less resources in my area for this particular issue this next year. That is actually what a senior leader needs from a second-tier leader that care for the whole, not just their one particular part in it or two or three particular parts in it. But that actually comes about because in their heart, in their pastor's heart, whether they're the first chair or second chair leader, they're going. I will just do whatever's best for the gospel here, whatever's needed for the kingdom. I'll take responsibility for my part, but I will care for the whole. That's what the first chair and the second chair leader do.
Speaker 1:There's stacks more to talk about, but we are out of time. That's what the first chair and the second chair leader do. There's stacks more to talk about, but we are out of time. I want to say thank you so much to Pete Blanche from Reach Australia, to Michael Davies from Lighthouse Church in Gorkin and to Megan Stephens from Vine Church in Surrey Hills. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart and we will look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.
