The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele

What I wish I knew before becoming a senior minister - with Jon Kwan and Dave Keun

• David Keun, Jon Kwan • Season 6 • Episode 29

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What would Dave Keun and Jon Kwan like to tell their younger selves if they could travel back in time before they took on the position of senior minister?

How has their sense of ownership changed?

What has been most difficult about the transition to the role? What mistakes have they made?

Dave Keun has been senior minister of Kellyville Anglican Church in Sydney’s North West since March  2022.

Jon Kwan has been lead pastor of St David’s Forestville (on Sydney’s Northern Beaches) since May 2022.


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Speaker 1:

It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele, and today, what.

Speaker 1:

I wish I knew before I took on the role of senior minister. John Kwan and David Kuhn are our guests. What if you are new in the role of senior minister at a church or you're putting your hand up for such a role? What would Dave Kuhn and John Kwan like to tell their younger selves if they could travel back in time to before they took on that position? Dave is Senior Minister of Kellyville Anglican Church in Sydney's North West. He's been in that role since March 2022. John is Lead Pastor of St David's Forestville on the northern beaches of Sydney. He's been in the position since May 2022 and before that, around 10 years he was on the team here at Village Church in the inner west of Sydney. John, welcome back. Thanks, and if we start with you, what was going on in your pastor's heart as you took on the new role at Forestville?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks, tonic. It's great to be here, great to be here in the room and back at church where I was here for so long. I think for me it was a real wrestle. I loved pastoring with you here, but I also was encouraged by you to think about how could I be a blessing elsewhere as well. And so, for me, taking on the role of lead pastor has been both a joy and also feeling the weight and responsibility. It's a joy to be able to shepherd under Christ, god's people, and yet, at the same time, the weight and the responsibility of going. It's those who are in front of me, but also those in the forest and beyond who don't yet know Jesus, that we are, as a church, trying to reach, and I feel that weight and responsibility, yeah, and that God would choose to use a wretch like me. I think there are all those things where my heart keeps going. I need to keep coming back to God, keep depending on Him in prayer and go. Please. Keep using my weak efforts for your glory.

Speaker 1:

It's been so long for me that I've forgotten. But how is it? How does it change when the buck stops with me?

Speaker 2:

Yeah For me. I used to think that, ah, I'm owning it. I love where I am as an assistant minister. I was owning that role, but again, when it does end up falling on you, I just felt the weight that. I remember people like yourself and others telling me you'll feel a weight. I'm like, ah, I won't feel the weight.

Speaker 3:

And then I already feel the weight, and then you go.

Speaker 2:

Oh no, there's more weights that I didn't realize I could feel. And then you're like, oh yeah, that's even heavier. And so again, reflecting on that, for me it's been. I need to keep turning back to God in prayer, even more so because I just feel so unworthy and the weight feels at times it can feel so heavy. Yeah, that's been my reflections.

Speaker 1:

Dave let's talk your pastor's heart standing up at Kellyville and how things changed for you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So it was a long journey, I think, for me in my own heart to have that sense of being comfortable enough to say I can lead something by myself. I'd spent a long time as an assistant, and always with the safety net of the rector right or the senior minister. They'd always catch you or be ready to sort of prop you up when you'd made a silly mistake or something along those lines. And so it wasn't probably until later in the piece in my journey where I went. I think I should think about taking on that sense of responsibility, and it took a bit of time to sort of, you know, navigate our system in order to sort of land that particular role. And you do walk in, as John said, you think you've taken the responsibility on. I mean, I played an acting senior minister role before.

Speaker 1:

For quite a long time, actually For quite a long time. So how was that different? Because you went from acting senior minister of one very big church to senior minister of another one.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I felt the weight during the acting role. I mean COVID just sort of happened to hit at the same time, and so I was sort of thrust into making lots of decisions very quickly, which is normally in the acting role you sort of just maintain.

Speaker 3:

Let's just get the status quo and let's just wait for the new person to come. But you were thrust into a position, as we all were at that point, where we were making decisions every day, watching the 11 o'clock press conference going what do we do now? And so that was difficult, but it also gave me confidence in my own ability to lead through that, so that's really cemented for me. I think this is a good time for me to step forward.

Speaker 1:

So just imagine nobody else is listening and you could whisper something to your younger self two and a half years ago. We'll just all go quiet for a bit and hear you say well, dave, just turn the cameras off.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, look. I think you often talk about having that sense of security in who you are as a child of God and as you take on that responsibility, I think I'd want to say to myself, you know, two and a bit years ago, rest really strongly there, stronger than you've ever had to. Rest before. As you go through the highs and lows of what comes in church and pastoral ministry, something's going to go really well. Don't find your identity there. And when things go bad, don't find your identity there. And when things go bad, don't find your identity there. Secure it in Christ and look to there frequently and often, and that will put you in good stead to keep going the long yards. Now I realize for many people I'm a, you know, young guy. You know, a couple of years in and everyone, like you, dominic, been doing it for maybe, let's say, a few more years, but that's been a real helpful thing for me that I want to go back and say rest stronger there than you've ever had to.

Speaker 1:

John Young John.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think for me, like Dave as well, keep relying on the Lord more. For me, the first year I had a number of big family things happen in my life. I lost my brother to cancer Just after a year of being in the role, one of my children got really sick, and so those things kind of stripped back even some of my capacity, even more so, and that just kept reminding me keep coming back on your knees, keep trusting God, keep talking to him. I think so many people would say don't give up your spiritual disciplines. And there are times when everything seems to be falling apart and I need to keep going, coming back to the word and being fed myself and praying, and not thinking about how to preach this or teach this to anyone, but just meditate on the word for myself.

Speaker 2:

And yes, I think, like Dave said, there's been lots of great things and hard things that have happened over the last two years for us and not find our identity in those things.

Speaker 2:

And I think the other one, probably for my particular situation, would be be willing to listen not listen, sorry be willing to honour the past of those who've gone before me. I think I didn't do that as well as I would have liked to. So, particularly in the first year, a number of changes happened that I think if I had honoured the ways in which the saints had served so hard, even if the changes were happening to be able to honour, that, I think would have been more beneficial for them, but also I think would have helped some of those changes be less bumpy. So I think if I were to tell myself two and a half years ago, that would be one of the big things is be really generous and willing to keep honouring what's been done in the past rather than just going. Let's do some changes. And while I did honour it, I think I needed to do that better.

Speaker 1:

I remember walking through the foyer of the offices at Capitol Hill Baptist and Mark Deber had put up a whole range of photos of the previous decades of ministry of Capitol Hill Baptist and he said to me as we were walking through this foyer that we were making he was fairly early on in his time there but they're making so many changes there. This was an intentional step of honouring and celebrating the things that had gone before he got there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But can I come back to that journey with the death of your brother Darren? Yeah, and I mean I know you left here in basically Easter and you were looking forward to preaching your first Easter. Yeah, after a year, After a year.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the Lord took him the night before Easter. It was the week before Easter. The Lord took him home. Yeah, it was hard. I don't know what else to really say, except I'm very thankful for God's kindness for the number of years that we did have Darren around with his cancer diagnosis. It was just over six years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's about over six years and he went through a lot of operations and treatments. But I'm also thankful that he loved the Lord and he's now with the Lord, which is wonderful but still hurts so much. But also that in God's kindness, he didn't take Darren straight away when I started the new role. I think if I was in the new role, trying to build new relationships with a whole new church family, trying to bring change about and be grieving the loss of my brother all at the same time in that that would have I don't know, I don't know, I don't think I'd be here.

Speaker 2:

Really, I think it's the kindness of God that it was a year I had relationships deep enough that people at church were able to care and love our family really well, and I'm very thankful for the number of different people who put up their hand to help in ways that I was just falling apart the week before Easter. So I'm thankful we're in a position where we had a team, a ministry team, to be able to pick up the pieces when I just suddenly was like fallen apart. And I mean this is a beautiful moment actually, because Darren's memorial service was held at Kellyville, anglican, and so that's the first time I met Dave actually was at Darren's memorial and so, yeah, it was really hard, really hard, and I'm just really thankful for the way God put so many different people around us, not just me but my family, to support us in that really difficult time.

Speaker 1:

Hard stuff for you in that first year, Dave. Yeah, absolutely yeah. Hard stuff for you in that first year, Dave.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely Not, with the loss of a family member.

Speaker 3:

But when you land anywhere new, you inherit a staff team that you haven't built and so navigating some of those things were tricky and so, yeah, just worked through one particular staffing sort of aspect of it that was difficult to sort of navigate through. So that person ended up leaving through that sort of process, which was hard. They were loved and doing good ministry in there, but, yeah, it was difficult to sort of navigate that through and, like, any time you come, you're looking to make change and you see things that need to be done and so, yeah, that was difficult, without wanting to go into all the details in this space, but yeah, what did you do beforehand to prepare yourself and what do you wish you'd done beforehand to prepare yourself?

Speaker 3:

Look, I think all the years of ministry have prepared me for what it has meant to step in and take that senior leadership position. You know, I've watched all the different ministers I've worked under and learnt things from all of them, things I'm like gee, that's a really good idea.

Speaker 3:

I'm taking that with me you know through to yeah, I won't be doing that, and so I felt like a bit of a sponge the whole way through. And so you know lots of places and people to learn from and ideas to steal and go. Yeah, I'll take that.

Speaker 1:

John, I remember watching you and I thought I don't think anybody has researched the demographics of Forestville more exhaustively than you did.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, that's part of how God has wired my brain to think carefully and do as much research as I could, I think. For me personally, I remember thinking about it a few years before I took on this role and it was a conversation we first started and then, in light of that, I thought I really would like someone who's outside my relationships to help me think about it strategically. So I got a coach mentor who helped me start thinking about who I am and the gifts that God had given me and to start thinking about where could I be able to serve God well with the gifts I've got and knowing the weaknesses I have, thinking about where might not be a good fit. And so for me that was about a year, a year and a half, of working with a mentor on that, so that when I started looking at potential places to serve the Lord, I had a framework which helped me. Some people want they just want to go by their gut.

Speaker 2:

But for me, I like my gut, but I also want to be thinking about it strategically, and so for me that was really helpful.

Speaker 1:

What kind of things were they saying to you? This is an area you need to work on before you end up in that role.

Speaker 2:

I mean it was different for each person. For me there were some things that, like it was excellent actually, and Village Church benefited as well, because it was challenging me on things and ministry practices I was doing already in my current role, but it was more just helping me think about what is it that God has given me gifts in that maybe others may not have? So, in light of that, what particular roles may be where I could do where others may not be able to do? And that's a really hard thing, because we want to be growing in humility and yet, at the same time, I was trying to also think how do we grow in being wise? And so for me, that was trying to talk through with him. What do you think, as I share, these ideas might be my strengths, and then he would then push deeper and go well, is that really a gift you have? Or yes, that is, and that would then help me then, as I spoke to different churches, work out whether I would be a helpful fit or not for that church as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Dave, what do you wish you had done that you didn't do either before or in the early season there?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, look, I think, like John said, I'd gone through the journey of trying to figure out how I'm wired and so what it would look like, walking in knowing the things I'll probably go well at, and so, in terms of results and relationships, I'm a relational person and sort of I think I'll know I'll go well here in terms of building the team and getting to know one another. It's the results side of things and pushing towards hey, what do we want to do in this space? That I always knew we were happy to lag behind, and so I think I wish I had worked harder in that space.

Speaker 1:

We've still done. You're thinking about the result-y type stuff, the outcomes, yeah like setting outcomes and goals and things.

Speaker 3:

It's not that we don't have those things, but they need to go hand in hand as you continue to move forward. And so I think I'd wish I'd been stronger at the start on some of those things. In sort of figuring out, this is sort of where we want to go, but it felt like I mean, it always feels like for me that the relational side is what we need to work on, and so I just navigate and you know that's my preference. So that's sort of where I end up. But, having said that, there's lots of outcome things we've done.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've been really excited. One of my staff was at a presentation you gave the other day and really exciting to see the outcome. Changes at Kelly Belundi, your leadership, yeah, praise God for thatunda your leadership, yeah. Praise God for that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's been good, john.

Speaker 1:

what about you? As you look back, you think oh, you know what I wish I'd done this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, as I said, being able to honour the past better is definitely one of them. I think I sought to work hard at talking to key people who'd been in the church for a long time. So I think for me, culture shift was going to be a big one. That I knew, walking into a church that was a suburban church rather than an urban church which I'd come from. That was a suburban church rather than an urban church which I'd come from which had lots of changeover and culture we could change quickly, reasonably, reasonably fast compared to a suburban church where I love it. There's been people I was just chatting to one of our members at 8 am on Sunday.

Speaker 1:

She's been at our church, been there since before you were born.

Speaker 3:

What was it?

Speaker 2:

60, coming up to 60 years. I was like, wow, that's awesome.

Speaker 2:

And so you know that's a beautiful thing about churches where there's long-term relationships, but I think I think my reflection was I didn't realise how slow culture shift can happen at times. So some things happened really fast, partly because of I'm just an excitable guy, I get excited about things and generally people get excited with me, and so some of those things are able to change quickly just because I'm excited and people start getting excited, that people are starting to see new people join church, people coming to Christ, those type of things. But bigger cultural changes. I've realized just I need to be willing to trust God and go slower, and so I think for me one of the major ones has been just going. I think I needed to go slow on some decisions that we went a bit fast on and in hindsight maybe we should have gone slower.

Speaker 3:

There's your pace, though, and then there's the congregational pace right. Like in terms of one of the things I've discovered is I feel like I am going slow and people are like you're changing everything. And I'm discovered is I feel like I am going slow and people are like you're changing everything and I'm like I feel like I'm going slow. I don't feel like I can go any slower.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

But listening to them in terms of their feedback and how they're feeling towards those changes have been some of the learnings, I think, in terms of what change looks like from your point of view, and from their point of view.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, First Sunday in the new role. I'm imagining a whole bundle of emotions. Let's start with you, John.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I mean, it was both joy and sadness. I had been in my previous role with you for there were tears the week before.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there was lots of tears before. But you know that's 12 years of ministry with you, 10 years on team, and so for me that was hard, being with a new group of people that I was seeking to love and lead and yet I didn't know them. But also for me, I just really wanted to show them the beauty of Jesus from the first time I opened up the scriptures with them. So we started preaching through Luke's gospel and for me that was just a joy to open up and share Jesus with them. And so for me that was a wonderful privilege to start preaching, looking at the Lord and showing the beauty of the Lord in Luke's gospel, and so for me that was exciting to be able to go hey, I get to share God's word with a new group of people and that I'm going to spend so many more years seeking to love, disciple, grow, cry with, rejoice with. And what a great way to start by opening up Jesus' words in the Gospels.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it was so much anticipation. Like you know, we had the commissioning service during the week.

Speaker 1:

And you're not really in control of that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah you just turn up and get told stand here. You know, not at this point, smile, you know. And so you've got your first Sunday where you're starting to genuinely get to know. You know the people who you're going to be ministering to and from day one, like I remember thinking this is just, you know, a vulnerable moment, thinking, oh, change starts now. You know, like, here we go, we're going to jump on mission together.

Speaker 3:

I preached Matthew 28. You know, if you took this on as your personal mission statement, change for us starts now. And you know there were some good things to come out of that, probably some idealistic things where you think, come on, dude, like it's day one, they have no idea who you are and you're looking to change the whole world. In your first Sunday, maybe get to know a few people first, but in honesty, that's sort of some of the like, just that anticipation and oh like, let's go, let's do stuff, but also probably not realising to a certain extent, because you don't know the people, the sense of tiredness, weariness that's there from you know.

Speaker 1:

There's actually been a leadership vacuum and a lot of people have been pushing out of their comfort zones for a while. Just speak about coming into that leadership vacuum.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I think you know, for Kellyville, like any sort of acting rector role, like you sort of maintain the status quo and people do step up in various ways in order to sort of make church happen week in, week out. And you come in, like you, john, full of excitement, I'm ready to go, and everyone's like, oh man, you're here, thank goodness.

Speaker 2:

I can just relax, I can chill out now.

Speaker 3:

And you're like what are you doing?

Speaker 2:

Look at the hard work starts now.

Speaker 3:

And so managing your own expectations and their expectations through. That was key and understanding who had stepped up significantly and caring for them and thanking them for the way in which they've, you know, worked hard to maintain church over those number of years.

Speaker 1:

John walking into that kind of yeah. I think, oh sorry, I cut you off Vacuum.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, I think for me, it was realising, and it sounds like for Dave as well. For us, the unique opportunity was, when I came, there was a desire for change. So, as a church, and as I was talking to the nominators, which are the people representing the church, as they were talking to different ministers, the overwhelming consensus, I kept being told was we're looking forward to change, and so I'm like this is exciting. So, like Dave, I'm excited about bringing about change, and so I think, but don't change that.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly what happened.

Speaker 2:

And so I think for me that was like, oh, this is so hard because there's a desire for change, but just not in the areas and everyone has different areas that they want change to happen and definitely don't change these bits. And so I think for me it would just be great if everyone was totally online and got those things right and so I think for me that was a real shock.

Speaker 2:

The first few months was I kept talking to all different types of long-term members, short-term members and the overall consensus was we're looking forward to the change that might happen, but everyone had different views of what that change should be. And then going.

Speaker 3:

How do I?

Speaker 1:

process what they did. So what's the?

Speaker 2:

right answer then, john, I don't know. I've made a lot of mistakes.

Speaker 3:

I actually and I stole this from someone else but we had a bunch of dessert nights at my place over the first you know four or five months and I asked them all the same question and you know what would a good five years look like for us when do you want to see our church in five years and what do you want me to not change?

Speaker 3:

You know what are the really core held values here and you know like, over the course of those dessert nights I probably had 120 responses that I'm you know were done in that sort of in my home and it was super helpful in terms of what are some of the landmines if I am going to change this, I know that's going to hurt or what are some of the things I go you bang on. We should absolutely never change that and some were non-negotiables, like great teaching and making sure the music's really good. But there were some other things, some value things that we were able to draw out at that point. That was super helpful for me and was just a wonderful listening exercise In terms of one of the things I think I wish I hadn't done back then was promise things that I can't deliver. You know, yeah, yeah, we won't change that, and I'm looking now going why did I say that.

Speaker 2:

That sounds really wise, though doing that. People have long memories too. Yeah, especially things that they value Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I wasn't as wise as Dave, I didn't do that, but we did have a church getaway within it was very early in your time, wasn't it About five months in?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so for me I used that as a way to gauge us as a church. So I preached on heaven and hell and the necessity of seeing people saved from God's judgment and the joy it is to be in the new creation, seeing people saved from God's judgment and the joy it is to be in the new creation. And on top of that I was just helping try and get a corporate voice on where, as a church, they thought we were, and so I found that really helpful. So I did a little kind of diagram of a church life cycle and just asked people to just where do you think we might cycle, and just ask people to just where do you think we might be, and just hear some thoughts. I actually did a blind voting so people wouldn't feel like, oh, I can't put my hand up here or there, because one of the things I remember thinking about was there's what you think might be where the church is at or where they would love for it to be, and sometimes people might think it's one way, but actually they would like it to be here, and so for me it was really going. Do they think we're in a healthy place, do they think we need to be in a place where we need to change? And, in God's kindness, that really helped me go. Oh yeah, they all feel like we need to change.

Speaker 2:

And then I did something that I found really helpful was just looking at the pathway of our church and all the different from the moment people don't know us, we don't know them, but they know us to us.

Speaker 2:

Sending people out into the fields with the gospel and asking everyone at the getaway to choose three things that if you think, in the next year we should definitely work on these three things, and by doing that, then we tallied it all up and because they're choosing three, you kind of get the outliers, but then it grouped in particular areas that as a staff team, we had already identified. We think these are the areas we need to work on first, which was particularly how do we welcome and care for people and get people who are investigating Jesus or investigating joining us? How do we help them be part of the community? And, in God's kindness, that's what as a church, they also voted that way and that was really helpful for me to go okay, great. Well, as a ministry team, this is where we're thinking. You as a church, this is where you're thinking. That's what we're going to put our energy in over the next few years.

Speaker 3:

Dave, I don't think I've got anything to add. This is really, really good. I'm happy to John's wisdom.

Speaker 1:

Great.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

We are out of time. Thank you so much for coming in. My guests on the Pastor's Heart, dave Kuhn, senior Minister at Kellyville Anglican Church in the northwest of Sydney, and John Kwan, lead Pastor at St David's, forestville on the northern beaches and there is lots more that we can talk about, but we will stop there and look forward to your company on the Pastor's Heart next Tuesday afternoon.

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