The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on Facebook then available in video on our website <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">http://www.thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Inside the ‘Compelled to Resist’ movement in the Church of England - with Charlie Skrine
“It may be that God is destroying the Church of England and who am I to stand in his way?
“The real tragedy would be if, in this traumatic, confusing time, if all of the evangelicals and the broader Orthodox group fall out with each other… if we can bear with each other in our different strategies, then that will be what we need (in whatever the future in England is going to be), whether that's within the Church of England or outside.
Charlie Skrine, the senior minister of All Souls Langham Place London, says his church (and other evangelical churches in the UK) are in a world of pain at the moment over the growing split in the Church of England.
Mr Skrine, who is speaking at the Evangelical Fellowship in the Anglican Communion Conference in Sydney, says All Souls is united in it’s commitment to biblical teaching on sexual ethics, but divided on what the best response should be.
He says a third of All Souls members are wanting to leave the Church of England now, a third want to stay and fight (never leave), and a further third are confused, and this diversity of opinion is reflected in the staff team.
Former All Souls evangelist Rico Tice has distanced himself from the Church of England, attends a Presbyterian Church, but retains Church of England Permission to Officiate. Rico said on the Gafcon 2018 livestream, of the gospel promoted by the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Evangelism Team, “It's a different religion... and it’s around whether scripture is authoritative in terms of human sexuality… I think it’s a great wickedness to tell people who are on the road to destruction that they're not... if we have church leaders who are putting people on that road to destruction it’s a salvation issue.. That's why we have to distance ourselves..." (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1482677891837392)
Mr Skrine says in Revelation 2 Jesus says that his people must not tolerate sexual immorality.
Mr Skrine says the bishops don’t get it, but there are tiny glimmers of hope of a settlement, with bishops moving slowly reluctantly towards the conclusion that they need to give up authority and come to a settlement.
He says the actions of the Bishop of London have united evangelical leaders within the London Church in a highly significant way with groups like All Souls, St Helens, Holy Trinity Brompton and Soma all standing side by side.
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It's the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And today, a man with one of the most difficult jobs in Anglican evangelicalism, charlie Screen. He's our guest. He is the senior minister of All Souls, langham Place in London. He's held that position for three years. This week. All Souls, the church that John Stott used to pastor. It is one of the three big evangelical churches of London. He's held that position for three years. This week. All Souls, the church that John Stott used to pastor. It is one of the three big evangelical churches of London. And yet the Bishop of London his bishop, working alongside the Archbishop of Canterbury has led the trajectory of the Church of England away from obedience to God's Word. The flashpoint has been whether God's will for us is that marriage should be between a man and a woman only, as the scriptures teach, in response to the Church of England move to bless same-sex relationships. Evangelical Anglicans have said enough's enough and drawn a line in the sand. A line in the sand, charlie Screen, as I think of the pastor's heart and your pastor's heart.
Charlie Skrine:I'm imagining you're in a world of pain over what's happening in your denomination at the moment. That's right. Yeah, I think that is right. I think particularly for All Souls, and in a number of ways it's difficult for us. So I don't know how well people listening will know the scene in england, but all souls has always been right at the heart of the church of england. John stott famously led we. We must be in the church of england and be thoroughly part of it.
Dominic Steele:I mean that that big debate in 1967 at keel. Um, I mean, for those who don't know, just tell us about martin lloyd jones and john stott, and yeah so of this is contested and this might be the most controversial thing we say.
Charlie Skrine:But in 1966 they'd worked together for a number of years. They ran this conference together. Martin Lloyd-Jones was speaking. Accounts vary but one version is that he said it is time to leave these corrupt denominations from each of the denominations you're in. Time to leave these corrupt denominations From each of the denominations you're in. Let's form a properly evangelical system of fellowship. And John Stott was chairing the meeting and was sufficiently troubled by what he'd heard that he stood to say that he disagreed with what had just been said and it led to a degree of breakdown between them and their relationship. But that was in October 66.
Dominic Steele:The Bible is against our speaker, history is against our speaker. I mean, it was reportedly unbelievably strong language for English people who reportedly beat around the bush. Yeah, I mean.
Charlie Skrine:People think of him as an entirely generous, ironic, but he could be clear and firm when he needed to be, when he wanted to be. So they were in October, but April that year was Kiel, the big Kiel convention 1967, our first NIAC, where the commitment was made we're going to be in the Church of England, we're going to throw ourselves into it, we're going to commit to everything and see what the Lord does.
Dominic Steele:So for All Souls, people to… which has been the heart of that with Stott there. That's been the heart of your DNA. You're going to work in the Church of England, yeah. And now the community is saying, oh, yeah.
Charlie Skrine:So when I was applying for the role, I did what you're meant to do and you ring around the people on the interview panel and so I rang the Archdeacon anything you want to tell us about All Souls, and he said you need to know All Souls is entirely committed to staying in the Church of England, no matter what. Now that actually tells you more about him, because the reality with us is that we are very united on the ethics of sexuality and same-sex relationships, but we have a wide range of opinion in the church congregation, with maybe I don't know a third we should leave, leave today, yeah. And maybe a third we must stay forever, never leave. And then a third in the middle, confused. So actually the thing the really painful thing for us has been third, in the middle, confused. So actually the thing the really painful thing for us has been how do we keep the congregations together as we try and work out how to face what's?
Dominic Steele:happening, and it's not just been the congregation that's split those three ways. That's been an issue in the staff team as well.
Charlie Skrine:Yeah, yeah, so we have a range of people from a range of backgrounds on the staff team. There'd be some not from an American background at all who cannot understand why we're still so. I have a lot of respect for the Bishop of London. I have a warm, friendly relationship with her. There'd be members of my team find that hard to understand, but then, yeah, you're right. So we have members of the ordained team who have found their relationship with the Church of England under strain.
Dominic Steele:I mean just this last week or so. Rico Tice, he was on your team and he isn't on your team anymore, and there's been all sorts of things written about that.
Charlie Skrine:Rico sent me the article that you're referring to. I was in Singapore at the time on my way here and bouncing in meetings between Presbyterian friends there and Anglican friends there. Headline Rico Tice becomes a Presbyterian. The reality, if you read the interview, is slightly more nuanced. Rico is attending a Presbyterian church and he's loving it. He is, it's quite fun talking.
Dominic Steele:He's in the membership classes and the adult Sunday school and all of this.
Charlie Skrine:But he is still an ordained Anglican, he still has the bishop's permission to officiate so that he can preach and lead services in church movement context. But he has deliberately and I know this began in a conversation I had with you a number of years ago ago he has deliberately wanted to put distance between himself as an evangelist at christianity explored and the gospel he's proclaiming and the decisions being taken by our denomination that contradicts that gospel where does it leave you?
Charlie Skrine:yeah, um, so, yeah, so, because of All Souls. But also I'm elected to the General Synod at the Church of England. It leaves me in a lot of meetings, a lot of discussions with the denomination are genuinely trying to find a good way forward from their perspective, and their view has been that if we just get all the people in the room and talk, we will find a way of squaring a circle, and we've been around that path three or four times now. There's actually another set of meetings meant to be happening while I'm here, so you have saved me from involvement in the latest round.
Charlie Skrine:But there are three groups roughly in the Church of England. There's those who very much want change, and for them this is a gospel issue. We must treat same-sex people equally. There's a group who want to hold on to the biblical position, and for them it's a gospel issue. We cannot move from that. And there's a group who want to hold on to the biblical position, and for them it's a gospel issue. We cannot move from that. And there's a group um smaller group, but most of the bishops, or a large number of bishops in the middle, where the thing that matters most is that we stay together, and those three demands are entirely incompatible, and so the the that that leaves us trying to work out how we can operate within the church of england and what on earth the future will be. Which of those three demands will end up dominating?
Dominic Steele:tell us about the compelled to resist meeting that really you helped convene. Uh, the bishop of london convened it.
Charlie Skrine:Yeah, um, and the our diocesan evangelical fellowship, um, helped arrange it. No, my, my role was was much smaller was a phone call with bishop of london where she was saying she picked up that I was um, wanting to help the bishops express stuff in ways that were not annoying and belittling. So their instinct is to say that somebody like me has a problem, that I'm distressed, the church is making these changes and I'm distressed. And I pointed out I'm actually quite relaxed. God is in charge. Nothing has changed. The Bible is still true. It's not that, it's that I must resist this. So Bishop Sarah said to me what should I call the meeting in order to get the right group of people? Because if we call it meeting for those who are distressed, we'll get quite a lot of more liberal people who think this hasn't gone far enough. So together we came up with compelled to resist and I think that describes where we are quite well as Bible people, gospel people.
Charlie Skrine:The Lord Jesus is the person whose loyalty we're first of all committed to. I'll be preaching tomorrow on some of the letters in Revelation 2, just down the road, loyalty we're first of all committed to. I'll be preaching tomorrow on some of the letters in Revelation 2, just down the road, where Jesus, writing to the churches, says I have this against you, that you tolerate the practices. And it's not an identical issue, but it is again. It has issues of sexual practice and issues of idolatry in it. And if Jesus says I have this against you, that you tolerate that, then I am compelled to resist. Yeah, compelled to resist. If you do this, we must resist that.
Dominic Steele:Do you want me to?
Charlie Skrine:tell you about the meeting.
Dominic Steele:Yeah, we've heard all sorts of things secondhand and you're here, so tell us.
Charlie Skrine:It was an extraordinary meeting because we didn't know how many people were going to come. We didn't know what kind of people were going to come. The bishops are convinced deep in their hearts that the resistance to this is a tiny number of quite odd people that were one fringe only, and I have been telling them that actually, I think you find it goes much deeper than that. It's a much wider body of people and we've been looking for ways to demonstrate that. So, compelled to resist, we had to move venue. There was a medium-sized church in the city of London, packed full. It was ordained people only, but packed full. I was sitting on a kind of folding chair at the back next to john coles, who's director of new wine for many years, and there was a queue of people wanting to say effectively the same thing and which, again, I think, surprised our bishops, all of them saying if you do this, it will radically change my relationship with the Church of England. So there were great moments. There was a young man who said I am the third generation ordained in my family. My father is in the room. He's traditional Catholic. If you do this, I'm not sure I still have a place in the Church of England. There was a young woman who said exactly the same thing Third generation ordained in the Church of England. My father is in the room and I'm in my curacy and if you do this, I'm not sure I'm coming back. So it was one after another and there was a bishop's like to talk. So the bishops began responding, and John Coles they'd been responding for 10, 15 minutes and we were only.
Charlie Skrine:The meeting was only hour and a half. Uh, john coles walked to the front while they were talking and said you said you were here to listen to us. You must stop. And it was a people applauded yeah, yeah, well, and bishop sarah as well. To give her credit, bishop sarah said you are right and we will. Now, we will listen. And so then it was. From then it was an hour of people, one after another. Someone who said I work in an ethnically racially mixed parish. If you do this, the Church of England will be older and whiter and less diverse. And again, all across the room, different people, different situations, different charismatic, conservative, traditional.
Dominic Steele:Catholic and since then an alliance has been formed which I mean Justin Welby has managed to unite evangelical Anglicans yes, something we thought never could have happened.
Charlie Skrine:So the night of the London meeting my friend Richard Moy I don't know if this is my night, he's the director of SOMA and was writing his PhD on HTB yeah, charlie Trinley Brompton At the time, yeah, and he said his line in his blog was for 50 years we've been apart in our separate networks and tonight the Bishop of London has reunited us and he's right.
Dominic Steele:Because we're with Jesus and against you. Yeah.
Charlie Skrine:Well, and it's not even against, but it's just. I don't know if it's the same here, but you gravitate towards people that you agree with more. You gravitate towards your network because you planted a church together, towards people that you agree with more. You gravitate towards your network because you're planting a church together. But actually here is something facing the whole Church of England and you step out to resist it and look left and right, see who's with you and you discover all these people who you've known and been friends with but were not quite sure what they would do are right there next to you. And that has been a wonderful feature last year and a half. And surprise it particularly because Justin Welby is the HTB Archbishop, deeply surprising to him that those people he thought would come with him on the same kind of journey he's been on have said we can't do that Now.
Dominic Steele:that is very significant.
Charlie Skrine:Yeah, it's been huge. And there was a moment, in one of these sort of secret discussions, behind closed doors discussions where they put us into three groups, sort of secret discussions, behind closed doors discussions where they put us into three groups, they said why don't we just for a bit? Let's, let's have those who want change, let's have those who are more in the middle care about unity and let's have the people who want to resist this. And they looked at the room to see who would sit with who and, and as some people from that network who are very different from me um, ordained women, that's as they moved across the room to sit next to me and you could see the other people in the room, puzzled, surprised You're together. Yeah, and that has been very important. And where that will go we'll see.
Dominic Steele:But it seemed to me that there was some sort of shift in the mood in the politics just late in the year last year, maybe early this year.
Charlie Skrine:I think we will see whether that is real or not. So the political reality is that we lose every vote. We are 40, 41 percent, 45 percent depends slightly what the question is In the synod vote In the synod and in the bishops even less. So the reality of where we are is that there is an episcopally led group that want change, that have voted, voted for change, and then you have the legal reality of the constitution, the church of england that they keep running into um, and so we go around. So, yeah, you're so.
Charlie Skrine:So around christmas time, there was a new pair of lead bishops in charge of what's happening in the church of england, and they um have set a reset that's what they've called it a reset and we're going to talk for settlement, and these are some things we've been asking for for three years. So, in one sense, that is exactly what I wanted to hear. In reality, though, it's still being led by the same people who want the same things, and so the ability to come to a settlement. If you still think that unity really is the gospel and that to dilute the authority of the Diocesan Bishop would be to go against the unity that Jesus wants, it's not clear to me what kind of settlement or reset is really possible. So we'll see, and the proof will be in the final product so.
Dominic Steele:So we'll see, and the proof will be in in the final product. Is it the case? What percentage of churchgoers of london would your group, the alliance, represent?
Charlie Skrine:um, I think I'd better not try and give you a number, um, today. So we um, we looked at those who were there at that meeting a year or so ago and there were some quite large numbers that came out of that. Some of those numbers have been challenged since, but it is. In particular, if you look at the number of young people, it is an enormous percentage. So one of the General Synod is a frustrating place to be part of.
Charlie Skrine:One of my only concrete achievements was to put in a question saying please will you publish the names of the churches at which this many young people and children attend.
Charlie Skrine:So they published a list, not in order, but a list of those with 250 or more young people, those with 100 or more young people and those with 50 or more young people, and the 50 young people to my mind is actually that's a normal small rural church. That's like a market town church, the kind of youth group I would go to sometimes on a Sunday night from the village where I lived, and that just means a few babies, some kids, and there were so few of those in the whole Church of England. Two thirds of the Church of England have under five children, which is basically the vicar's family, but then at the other end of the list, the sort of 250 or more. Not only were they, with a tiny number of exceptions, churches that would take an orthodox line on sexuality, they were churches where I had the youth workers' phone number in my phone for most of them. So we were, you knew them, you'd networked with them.
Dominic Steele:Yeah, that's right.
Charlie Skrine:So these were new-on churches, hdb churches, compton, terran, conservative churches. Yeah, so the bishops.
Dominic Steele:It does pose the question should you hold your nose and stay in and in the end, just by waiting, you'll win, because the liberals will die.
Charlie Skrine:Yeah, and I.
Dominic Steele:The great thing about being Christian is you don't need to know the answer, you just have to decide what you are able to do in conscience faithfully now.
Charlie Skrine:The great thing about being Christian is you don't need to know the answer. You just have to decide what you are able to do in conscience faithfully now, because you may not be able to hold your notes in your conscience. So, if someone's conscience, that's right. So one of the distressing features of this has been the confusion of strategy and conscience. Confusion of strategy and conscience. So if somebody's conscience means they have to leave, that to a degree damages the strategy of those who want to stay, because that's one vicar who won't be voting for me for General Sunder next year if I'm still mad enough to do that again. But if you do something against your conscience, jesus calls that sin, and so my strategy does not depend on sin. Um, so if somebody acts on behalf of their conscience, I say praise the lord for them, thank them. We are brothers and sisters in christ. We're working to reach england in exactly the same way and and attempting to stay friends with those who've left, those who stayed, those who have wildly different strategies, is difficult but really, really important. So, yeah, so there's two possible futures, and God is in charge and the one he wants will happen.
Charlie Skrine:One is where the denomination is restored, where, you know, over the last few years, huge numbers of young clergy from these various networks now leading churches, turning churches around.
Charlie Skrine:That could be the future of the Church of England. Or the changes they're making now could mean it is impossible for new clergy in particular to join or potentially impossible to get a job. So lots of our rural situations you've got four or five, maybe 10 churches glued together. What do you do if three of the churches say they will only have a vicar who will bless same-sex couples and three or four of the churches say they will not have a vicar who will? So we might end up with a sort of cut flower church where there's still growth and life and the flower looks great, but actually the future has already been cut off by what's happened. And so what the Church of England Evangelical Council that I'm part of is trying to do is trying to negotiate with the denomination to say would you like us genuinely still to be here in 30 years time? If so, there needs to be a way for New Clodgett and Good Conscience to join, for incumbents to join churches, which is really the structural differentiation that Forne Roberts has been talking about yeah, that's right.
Dominic Steele:I mean I'm hearing they're not prepared to give up power.
Charlie Skrine:I would say they're on a journey, and quite slowly, but they are moving in the right direction on that. So I've been involved in these groups now for two years. Early on I would say things like that and they didn't quite laugh at me, but that was entirely unthinkable, and even a number of people who I would say are close allies would also have said that is there's no way, that'll never happen, or I'm not sure that's a good idea. And now the official line for domination is that we will need structural provision, and they add the word minimal to the front of that. But um, but that is a. That is an enormous change in what I think is the right direction. But you're right, they, they still are nowhere near um, the kind of things that I think would give that permanence, I mean what we want is all three groups and all souls to say this is a good idea.
Charlie Skrine:Yeah, that's right, yeah yeah, in a way that they can be.
Charlie Skrine:So the giving to ourselves has dropped massively since the Church of England did this, because people who will, in conscience, no longer give if the money is going into the Church of England, and that is a major problem for just running a church and a charity and trying to do mission and put projects together.
Charlie Skrine:So we need a solution that says you can be in the church of england with good conscience without compromising your convictions, and that will need darts and bishops to give up something. And at the moment they've approached us as if there are sort of two groups of warring children says that they're the grown-ups yeah, and they're the grown-ups. And I and they are now beginning to repeat this back to me like they've heard it, but I've been trying to say that's there are three groups here and if we're going to get to a sensible adult situation, then every group is going to have to give up something of what they want, and we're away from that yet. It's very hard for a dastard bishop to give up some of their legal authority or to change the role that they're there to say there are some parishes I can no longer be welcomed in operate in now in our little church here.
Dominic Steele:Uh, we've just bought another house and we bought it under the anglican church property trust and all that kind of thing. But there's no way that I'd be putting long-term property money into the Church of England at the moment.
Charlie Skrine:Yeah, we've got a real problem. So it's the 200th anniversary of All Souls this year, november this year of the building and I arrived as new director, inherited a two-phase building plan. We were going to do the outside of the building and then for 2024, to be ready this year. We were going to do the outside of the building and then for 2024 to be ready. This year we were going to completely redo the inside. We need to raise another four million. Um, since the demolish have done this. There is no way, there's no appetite for that. Yeah, yeah. And even the roof bit, the outside bit, um, that was well underway. When I arrived, there were people saying just what? Why am I putting? And again, the third who think we should leave straight away. Why am I spending money on a roof that we might not be?
Dominic Steele:using. And so how do those conversations with either Justin Wilby or Sarah Mullally? How do you go?
Charlie Skrine:when you say you guys have done this. Again, I respect and like Sarah, bishop Sarah and she partly because she is Bishop of London, where just our geography in London, where a lot of people tightly crammed together with quite a good transport system. So if somebody is not happy with my church, all they have to do to get a church that they prefer is walk five metres down the road. So we are, in general, general, more theologically distinct each church. So, um, compared to the other bishops in different parts of england, bishop sarah has a really clear understanding of the level of disagreement on this in london. So she, she understands and is trying to help, um, though she is limited by what she can get all the other bishops to agree to and, to a degree, limited by her own convictions about what a diocese should be More widely, yeah, the bishops really don't get it.
Charlie Skrine:Some are beginning to, but they say things like. They say things like you are a loud, noisy, vocal, tiny minority and we say I really don't think we are and we'll see. So they are. Then they're very surprised when churches in their diocese disinvite them or stop giving money or are looking for ordinations from somewhere else or a spiritual oversight from somewhere else and we have. This was discussed at the conference I'm at here in Sydney. There is a sort of English culture of politeness, so you can go and see your Ducer and Bishop and express that you're upset with what's happening, but the Bishop may not understand that you will actually stop paying, stop sending ordinands, potentially even withdraw from the Ducers, and they'll go home thinking that oh yeah, we'll be fine, it is time.
Dominic Steele:Hmm.
Charlie Skrine:Okay, what do you want to happen? Above all else, I want the orthodox to stay together. So, again, because I don't know what God is doing. I said this to the general secretary of the Church of England two years ago. He he was sort of asking how I was. So I feel entirely calm, because it may be that God is destroying the Church of England, and who am I to stand in his way?
Charlie Skrine:So for me, the real tragedy would be if, in this traumatic, confusing time, if all of the evangelicals and the broader Orthodox group fall out with each other, stop working together, end up in a place where we cannot trust each other because of decisions we've made during this phase. So the more that we can stay together. That then means whatever the bishops do, because again, our situation is one of powerlessness. We have not enough votes to. We have enough votes to block some things, so we can block a change in doctrine, we can block a new marriage service, but we don't have enough votes to positively get anything that we want. So we don't know what's going to happen. But actually, if we gather, keep together this broader and broader group of people who agree, and if we can bear with each other in our different strategies, then that will be what we need in whatever the future in England is going to be, whether that's within the Church of England or outside.
Dominic Steele:Well, we will pray for you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, why don't I pray now, heavenly Mother?
Dominic Steele:We do pray for the faithful Bible Christians within the Church of England who are trying to obey the Lord Jesus. We pray that it would not be the case that they tolerate sin. We pray that they would be compelled to resist, in whatever form that looks like, and we pray for repentance from those who have walked away from obedience to Jesus. We pray that, whether it's Bishop Sarah or Archbishop Justin or others in the House of Bishops or others in the English Synod, justin or others in the House of Bishops or others in the English Synod, we pray that they might believe that your way is best and, when faced with a choice between doing what the world says and doing what you say, we pray that they might be obedient to Jesus, to the teaching of Scripture, and there would be the miracle of repentance in their life and in the Church of England. And we pray that this church might be a church that obeys Jesus Christ, that holds out the word of life clearly, and that people respond with repentance and faith.
Dominic Steele:We thank you for leaders like Charlie who are navigating in this difficult space, and we pray that you'd help them to hear clearly the voice of God. We thank you for the way that we have seen an unprecedented unity between the Bible Christians of London and we pray that that might cause Bible Christians across the UK to stand, that they might be encouraged by the stand of GAFCON and people of the global south from around the world to trust and obey. We pray this in Christ's name, amen. Amen. Thanks for joining us, charlie Screen, from All Souls, langham Place in London. My name's Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the Pastor's Heart and we will look forward to your company next week.
