The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
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The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Plans for Your Good: A Prime Minister’s Testimony of God’s Faithfulness - with Akos Balogh
Australia’s former Prime Minister Scott Morrison releases a new autobiography this week where he speaks explicitly about his Christian faith, and there’s a bible quote on almost every page.
Akos Balogh of Blue Fox Media joins Dominic Steele to review Mr Morrison’s new book where the former Prime Minister writes of wrestling with whether to study at Vancouver’s Regent College, being helped by listening to sermons by Tim Keller and Rick Warren, being rebuked and encouraged by Christian pastors and friends, wrestles with forgiveness, and God’s goodness during a long struggle over infertility.
Plus we discuss how pastors can wisely interact with political leaders.
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It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele. And today we talk faith and politics, and specifically the Christian faith of former Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison. Mr Morrison has a new autobiography out this week. It's called Plans for your Good a Prime Minister's Testimony of God's Faithfulness. Arcos Balog is our guest. Arcos is a former Executive Director of Gospel Coalition Australia and most recently on the staff of Sydney's Moore Theological College. He's now setting up his own writing business.
Speaker 1:This episode is a little dangerous for me, for us, because as a pastor, and before that as a journalist, I have attempted not to discuss any political inclinations that I might have.
Speaker 1:And so people who've been members of our church for years or people who worked with me in journalism before that, I think, wouldn't know my leanings, left or right. And I've taken that posture because, as a minister of Christ Jesus, I don't think the Bible commits us to the politics of the right or the left. And I was saying to our local MP the other day I want people to be part of our church who have right views and have left views, and I want the dividing line of the ministry to be the gospel, not an allegiance to one way or the other in politics. And so, as you engage with this episode today, people will have different views of Scott Morrison's politics and strongly like or dislike them, and so we invite you today, on the pastor's heart, to come with us on a complex dance as we attempt to review this autobiography of the most recent Australian Prime Minister, and I'm hoping to have a politically detached but spiritually engaged conversation with Archos Ballag. Archos, let's start with the Pastor's Heart, and what did this book do to your heart?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the things that I think we'll end up talking about is Morrison has a very high view of God's goodness and God's control over life, and for me, that's something I've been thinking about how God is in control not just during the good times, but also the hard times as well. So it's really helped me to remember that, even though, whenever I go through suffering, god is there with me. God is working his purposes out and I can rejoice in suffering like we're called to do.
Speaker 1:He was really strong on that. I mean, one of the big issues was infertility in his life and between him and his wife and the agony that he had pouring his heart out to God in that area.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Like. I was quite surprised to hear that they went through 10 rounds of infertility treatment with IVF Each one of those failed, and the crushing loss that they felt each time it happened. And yet, as you say, he cried out to God what are you doing? God Sort of like the psalmist and really worked his way through that and grew as a result of that. What surprised you about this book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, look so many things. Look, morrison's not a professional theologian, but I thought he did like for me. I didn't know what to expect, but I thought he did a great job in so many areas in the book when it comes to theology, so I was very pleasantly surprised. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think for me the first big thought was well, this book is dripping with scripture. Hardly a double page spread went by without a Bible quote. And as somebody who is a little bit of a political biography junkie you and I were talking about this and I'll just put up on the screen the shelf in my bookshelf and you can see all the different books, different political biographies that I have read of all sorts of different political leaders from the right and the left um uh, this was by far and away the most explicitly christian uh of I mean the I brought in the other four. Peter Costello gets mentioned in the book as a mentor to Morrison, former treasurer of Australia. In his biography there's hardly a mention of the Christian faith and yet he was a Christian mentor to Morrison.
Speaker 1:George W Bush I mean, these are just the ones I found on my bookshelf as I was looking through a man of faith, the spiritual journey of george w bush, and I mean um key, there is the moment of um billy graham goes to the white house the night before launching the attack in the 1991 Gulf War and praise with President Bush on how to navigate. I mean, and that's a central moment in that one, I think John Anderson's biography. I mean highly respected Christian leader, now in life after politics, in life after politics, um, he, the seminal story is a cricket game where he hits a cricket ball and he's um, uh, well, there's a death and uh, it's a really confronting moment, a real cry out to God moment. But um again, uh, nowhere near as detailed in his faith experiences as Morrison, I think my favourite one is this one Charles Colson, born again.
Speaker 1:He was Richard Nixon's hatchet man at the time of Watergate. Basically, the guy responsible for the cover-ups went to jail, sentenced to jail by the American justice system for his role in Watergate, and um, and in jail turns to Jesus Christ and um, and then actually spends the next 30 years um ministering Christ in the prison system. And for me as a young journalist reading, uh, chuck Colson's book and him speaking so openly, I found it profoundly helpful and I actually thought that people in the political world and the media world today reading Morrison's book potentially could find it similarly significantly helpful. I mean, you're a political not quite the political biography junkie that I am, but what were your thoughts?
Speaker 2:there. Yeah, I was so pleasantly surprised that he was so strongly Christian and yet obviously brought in his political life as well. And I guess the quote in the preface I might just read it out, if that's okay. So just to give your listeners a feel for what Morrison writes like in the preface Morrison writes, and I quote we also find God's goodness in more than just the good times and big achievements. Sometimes we experience it right in the fierceness of the storm. In all of life's circumstances, positive and negative, hopeless and hopeful, god's goodness is the anchor that holds, and the greatest of all our blessings is the hope he holds for us in eternity. And he quotes Ephesians 1 19 the key is to look at life through the prism of God's goodness, knowing that his plans are for your good.
Speaker 1:So from the very beginning he's putting this forward as a pastoral type account as much as it is a testimony to God's faithfulness in his life now, I don't want to be, we don't want to be too critical, because he isn't a theologian, he's a layman, but he, I mean he dreadfully mangles Jeremiah 29,. Um, in plans for your, I mean so many people do, but um, I found that, and, and the metaphor of um, moses raised his staff before um heading off into the red sea. And you should raise your staff, have your staff up in life, do you know? I don't know. I mean, it's kind of a nice idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. There were some metaphors and allusions. Like Scott Morrison for those that don't know, does come from a Pentecostal background, which is, I guess, more comfortable with those sorts of allusions than perhaps our backgrounds as well. What?
Speaker 1:did you find frustrating?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if I found anything too frustrating, but I did have questions. The particular question for me was at the beginning, as I just read out, he does talk about God's plans for our good and the greatest plan he has for us is our eternal salvation. And I thought, OK, this will be interesting to see the hope that we have in Christ being front and center. But throughout the next few chapters, almost all the way to the end of the book, it almost felt like he was talking about our temporal blessings, that we have those, the good plans that God has for us. I didn't find it as clearly anchored in the eternal hope that we have Now. I'm sure Morrison is anchored, but it wasn't as clear to me reading through the book as I expected.
Speaker 1:I felt a little frustrated in the first section that I thought I'm wondering he was just sounding a bit Pelagianism, pelagianism really in the term, I'm wondering he was just sounding a bit Pelagianism, pelagianism really in the term. There was a kind of a cooperation with God's grace, I thought. Did you feel that?
Speaker 2:There was a chapter there, that's right, yes.
Speaker 1:And so I was kind of thinking, oh, I hope he doesn't think this. And then he got to a chapter where he got to Christ and he was excellently clear on grace when he got there. But there was an inconsistency theologically between what he was saying earlier and what he was saying there. I thought Did you have a similar?
Speaker 2:observation. Absolutely, I think the inconsistency is the word, at least for those that are sort of astute observers. They might see the same sorts of things, might see the same sorts of things. You know, earlier in the book he seems to be saying one thing. Then it's maybe that one thing is a little bit backgrounded and other things come to the foreground.
Speaker 1:Perhaps, although actually as I was reading it, I was remembering back to reading this Born Again book by Charles Coulson and thinking how spectacularly helpful I found it when I first was becoming Christian. So I'm calling 1984, 1985, reading this book. And then I read it again 25 years later and I was shocked at his bad theology all over the place and I thought, oh, I just never noticed any of that 20 years ago. And so I thought, ah, there will be a difference between, if you like, the discerning pastor who reads and the lay person who's reading.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. That's right. And a discerning pastor might, you know, certainly have quibbles and questions around that. But, as you say, I think most people probably might not pick those things up.
Speaker 1:I was a little disappointed and I want to discuss this with you. Um, I didn't proselytize as prime minister.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting his whole take on faith and politics uh was interesting. Um, like he does say that he was very active in the christian fellowship within the parliamentarians and that was really encouraging.
Speaker 1:So I organized that. The christian fellowship met in the Christian fellowship within the parliamentarians. And that was really encouraging. So I organized the Christian fellowship met in the prime minister's office of Australia.
Speaker 2:And Kevin Rudd came along after he'd been deposed and you know they prayed together and so forth. But yeah, you're right, it was interesting that he didn't make much of, or he actually, as you say, said that he didn't. I don't want to say use the office, but, like we're all called to, as we have opportunity to share the gospel.
Speaker 1:I mean, there is a difference between me as a worker proselytizing on the boss's time, if you like, and me talking to my friends at lunchtime, you know, and I think, at lunchtime in my time, I am to, first and foremost, be christ's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and one would think that as a politician, you have a lot of those opportunities, as you're out there, meeting with people and being able to talk about particularly people that are struggling, being able to share your faith in that situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean and he's done that actually quite explicitly and overtly since but stopping being prime minister, um, um, I mean, it does raise for us a difficulty or a question of how closely should one, as a minister, stand next to someone like scott morrison or, conversely, someone like kevin rudd, who was a professing christian at the time he was in office? Yeah, you want to comment on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, sure. I mean, I think the way Scripture understands politics is that there are some issues that I think Scripture speaks directly to, straight line issues, and I think that those are issues that ministers should be very comfortable speaking about, such as politics, religious freedom, these sorts of issues, politics, religious freedom, these sorts of issues, but then a lot of the issues in the political field, including positions held by our politicians, what someone's called jagged line issues, where the line is not straight and Christians will disagree. You know land on different areas as to, you know different policies, and so, when it comes to standing by particular people that hold particular positions, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 1:I think ministers need to be careful about holding up a particular politician, as this is the person that you should vote for, at least from the pulpit, but obviously, personally, I think they should be comfortable being able to say that, yeah well, I mean, I wouldn't do that for either side of politics, but what I mean looking at Morrison, I suppose one of the disappointments of the book for me is whether I look at the right of Australian politics or whether I look at the left of the Australian politics.
Speaker 1:I think both of them have been spectacularly inconsistent in the way that they have thought about our care for refugees, our care for the vulnerable, and it. It feels like neither of them have read the parable of the good samaritan, and I wanted to hear, um, the christian man say here's how I wrestled with the parable of the good samaritan and uh, and I may not have agreed with his analysis I mean, I don't think I did when he was immigration minister, but I would have at least liked to hear him have a good, when he's doing such a big thing on what is God, and God is central to have not walked into the controversies where a Christian person might have thought well, hang on, what's going on here?
Speaker 2:That's right, and I think a lot of readers will be asking the same sorts of questions. There are a lot of those hot button issues, particularly immigration. As you say, he was responsible for the border at one point. Yeah, and a lot of Christians will be asking the same question.
Speaker 1:It'd be good for him to unpack that it felt like you kind of walked by the other side of the road. Yeah, I mean there were others like thinking about well, just the nasty taste that left in our mouth about the swearing oneself into ministries without being transparent about that. I mean there were just some things that you think yes be yes and no be no.
Speaker 2:And what's going on there? Yeah, it's interesting. I noticed Morrison, throughout the book, actually talks about himself as a sinner, having made mistakes in politics, particularly on the chapter on forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually his chapter on forgiveness was exceptional. Absolutely Give us that, give us your thoughts there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me that was one of the most powerful chapters. I was reading it with my family last night and, yeah, I had to stop because it brought me to tears. Look, your listeners might remember the family the Abdallahs, layla and Danny Abdallah. They had four kids that were walking with their cousins to get ice cream on February 2020 and a drunk driver in a four-wheel drive knocks them over, kills three of their kids. This was in northwest Sydney and the Abdullah's first instinctive response was to forgive the driver. Now what happens in this account is that the Morrisons get to know them and become good friends with them, and they share about the Abdullah's faith and how that's encouraged them and the importance of forgiveness for Christians. Morrison unpacks the parable of the unforgiving servant from Matthew 18, which I think he does a good job at, and I think Morrison writes some very challenging words. If I could just read a few out.
Speaker 2:So, talking about the importance of forgiveness as Christians, seeing how much God's forgiven us, morrison writes these words. He says you don't have to choose between forgiveness and justice, but you do have to choose between forgiveness and vengeance. You do have to choose between forgiving your offender and hating them. You have to choose between being open to restoration and reconciliation reconciliation rather than ghosting and cancelling. And that's in the context of. He's also talking about the culture we're in, where there's a lot less forgiveness now thanks to the way our culture is thinking about wrongdoing.
Speaker 1:What I found particularly fascinating about that chapter was he spoke about sitting with about um sitting with um danny, the father of that family.
Speaker 1:Um, and reasonably recently I think it was, and him saying so, scott, who have you had to forgive in politics? And um, and I, I found it really, um, helpful and encouraging, I mean, as you think about forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us, and um, in the cut and thrust of politics, um, the politics does end up becoming personal and people are hurt and are wounded, and you do. Well, it was. It was lovely to hear, I mean hear, of him letting go and forgiving. Yeah, I mean, I I have.
Speaker 1:Um, the last political biography that I read about a month and a half ago was bob hawks yes and uh, and it was the one that came out just after his death. And uh, hawk comes out as a, uh, well, a nasty sleazebag. Really, um and um. It was just stunningly different to hear of the work of the gospel changing this man, morrison, um, so that he is able to extend the forgiveness to others that has been extended to him in Jesus, and for me, reading Hawke's biography a month ago, what a strong contrast.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And the other thing he does in that chapter is he recognises that he needs to ask forgiveness of others himself. Yes, in politics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I was actually thinking, ah, tell me more at that point. Yeah, I mean he did no-transcript that I wrestled with depression, which was a big and significant revelation, but it would have been really helpful to have heard him say I actually had to go and say to X that what I said was not fair and I want to apologise for that and ask for forgiveness, and that would have been great, yeah, yeah it was interesting because he talked about that in the context of that's between me and god and the other person, and we won't open it up here.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it would have been very helpful, very powerful.
Speaker 1:It would have been powerful. Yeah, um uh, the depression revelation yeah, comments yeah, I thought it was.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm assuming that this hasn't been something that he revealed earlier than the book am I right to assume that, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1:I haven't. I. Yeah, it was a, I mean the papers last weekend picked up on it because it was a new thing and revealed in the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I'm so glad he's revealed it now, just because so many Australians struggle with depression, and the fact that he and it was interesting the way he said it he said, look, he's someone who can work a lot of hours, work very hard, but the thing that got him depressed was all the personal attacks he was getting and he was getting very anxious. Saw his doctor. Doctor prescribed him antidepressants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found reading that. I mean, you just think, if you've got australia through more or less in a good way through the um and then, once you've been through such a high pressure exercise, then it would be fairly normal to fall in a bit of a heap, absolutely. And yet you've just got to keep running at an incredible pace. And it's not possible to keep running at that incredible pace. I do remember watching John Howard and thinking 13 years at that incredible pace.
Speaker 2:And he was ready to do more had he won the election. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:How do you do it? But yeah, what do you thank God for in Scott Morrison?
Speaker 2:I thank God for someone a politician who was at the highest levels of office who's so open about his faith and open about how good God is. I thank God that he has written this in such a way that he's commending God to other people, and doing it in such an unashamed way. Hmm, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for coming in. Arcos Balog is our guest Arcos, a former executive director of Gospel Coalition Australia and more recently on the staff of Sydney's Moore Theological College. He's just setting up his own writing business, bluefoxmediacomau and go and check him out there. Thanks for joining us on the Pastor's Heart. We'll look forward to your company next week.
