The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
Christian leaders join Dominic Steele for a deep end conversation about our hearts and different aspects of Christian ministry each Tuesday afternoon.
We share personally, pastorally and professionally about how we can best fulfill Jesus' mission to save the lost and serve the saints.
The discussion is broadcast live on Facebook then available in video on our website <u><b><a href="http://www.thepastorsheart.net">http://www.thepastorsheart.net</a></u></b> and via audio podcast.
The Pastor's Heart with Dominic Steele
A high stakes game of ecclesiastical poker in the Anglican Communion - with Justin Badi Arama and Paul Donison
It is almost D day in the Anglican Communion.
Today we give the background for two highly significant meetings. One to take place next week in Rome. The second in June in Cairo.
The Rome gathering has been called by the rejected Canterbury leadership. The Cairo gathering has been called by the leadership of the Global South.
As background, The Church of England, the historic mother church of the Anglican Communion, under the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury formally abandoned the historic Christian faith when the English General Synod voted to follow Archbishop Welby and his house of bishops in voting for same sex blessings.
In reaction, the majority theologically orthodox have drawn a line in the sand and parted company with The church of England.
The Global South Churches said in their important Ash Wednesday 23 statement that the Church of England has disqualified herself from leading the Anglican communion.
Gafcon said the Archbishop of Canterbury’s leadership has been irreparably damaged.
We speak with the chair of the Global South Archbishop Justin Badi Arama of South Sudan and the new General Secretary of Gafcon Bishop Paul Donison.
Church Suite Taster Days in Sydney and Brisbane
Check out the new church management software ChurchSuite. Gavin and Luke are hosting five taster days in Sydney and Brisbane in November.
Assistant Minister role at Village Church Annandale, Sydney
Village Church is looking for an assistant minister. Perhaps it’s you or you know someone? Could you lead our mission outreach and the ministry aspect. Plus help set vision and in preaching and pastoral care. For more info or to have a coffee email dominic@villagechurch.sydney
Financially Support The Pastor's Heart via our new tax deductible fund
Please financially support The Pastor's Heart via our new tax deductible giving page.
--
Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.
it's the pastor's heart and dominic steel, and today, a game of high stakes ecclesiastical poker in the anglican communion, and which bishop has the bigger hand? It is almost d-day in the anglican communion and today, on the pastor's hearts, two guests, two leaders of global orthodox anglican Communion. And today, on the Pastor's Heart's, two guests two leaders of global Orthodox Anglicanism. From Juba in South Sudan, we speak with the Chair of the Global South, archbishop Justin Badi Arama, and from Texas in the United States, the new General Secretary of GAFCON, bishop Paul Donison. Today we're giving background for two highly significant meetings.
Speaker 1:Today we're giving background for two highly significant meetings, one to take place next week in Rome, the second in June in Cairo. The first, the Rome one next week. It's been called by the old, rejected Canterbury leadership. The second one, following on from last year's big GAFCON conference in Rwanda, has been called by the new leadership of the Global South as background, the Church of England, the historic new leadership of the Global South as background. The Church of England, the historic mother church of the Anglican Communion, under the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury, formally abandoned the historic Christian faith. The General Synod of the English Church voted to follow Archbishop Welby and his House of Bishops down the way of apostasy by voting for same-sex blessings. In reaction, the theologically orthodox have drawn a line in the sand and parted company with the Church of England. The Global South churches said in their important Ash Wednesday 23 statement that the Church of England has disqualified herself from leading the Anglican Communion. Now let's go back 12 months ago this week to Gafcon and remind ourselves of what was said there.
Speaker 2:First a clip from the conference statement and then reaction from leaders have no confidence that the Archbishop of Canterbury nor the other instruments of communion led by him are able to provide a godly way forward that will be acceptable to those who are committed to the truthfulness, clarity, sufficiency and authority of Scripture. We cannot walk together in good disagreement with those who have deliberately chosen to walk away from the faith once all delivered to the saints, as we see in Jude 3. Successive archbishops of Canterbury have failed to guard the faith by inviting bishops to Lambeth who have embraced our promoted practices contrary to Scripture. This failure of church discipline has been compounded by the current Archbishop of Canterbury, who has himself welcomed the provision of liturgical resources to bless these practices contrary to the scripture. This renders his leadership role in the Anglican Communion entirely indefensible.
Speaker 3:Do you finally believe that we're serious? Because we really are serious, and 80% of the Anglican Communion is saying this too. We're serious because this is a First Order salvation issue.
Speaker 4:We remain the Anglican Communion, remain the Anglican Communion. The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Church of England put themselves in impaired communion with me, with my province and with the rest of the Orthodox provinces. We didn't ask him to do this. He himself entered in this situation and by doing so, the Church of England accepted to choose to be in impaired communion with the rest of the communion. The statement is unambiguous the Orthodox global Anglican Church has spoken and the global Anglican Church has spoken and the instruments of communion are broken and the Archbishop of Canterbury's role has ended.
Speaker 3:I think now Lambeth should disappear. We need a new way of being together. I think, in my opinion, the four instruments of unity must be changed, must be rechaped. Let me tell you, or explain, a little bit about that. For example, the Archbishop of Canterbury played an important role for the Church of England, but not today, sadly, for the Anglican Communion. According to my understanding, the Archbishop of Canterbury has six or seven different roles and one of them, one out of six or seven, is concerning to the Anglican Communion. For the reason I would like to separate.
Speaker 3:The Archbishop of Canterbury should be, or must be, the primate of all England and then the Anglican Communion must have another head or another primate that can lead the Anglican Communion. And I can understand, you know, his decision in the last general synod of the Church of England that he approve the blessing of same-sex people. You know, because he was with the heart of the Church of England but not with the heart of the Anglican community. You can't wear both those hats. No, no, we can't Second the primates.
Speaker 3:You know, I was in the primate meeting of 2016 in Canterbury and we approved all primates to apply discipline to the Episcopal Church of the United States, TEC. Finally, nothing happened. Why? Because the Archbishop of Canterbury didn't apply discipline. He said he had no authority with TEC. And also ACC said we have nothing to do with the resolution of the primates meeting At the end. The primates meeting is not working well. It's not functioning as an authoritative body in the Antiguan Communion. And third, the ACC Same thing. Acc was organized according to the mentality of the past. I think we need a new way to organise ACC because ACC is working with the English mind, with the English system, and the majority of the Anglican Communion is not English.
Speaker 1:We are people around the world. Now we fast forward to today and we start this episode of the Pastor's Heart with the new General Secretary of GAFCON, Paul Donison, on the line from Texas in the United States. Paul, these two meetings that are coming up the main one called for June by the Global South, Now that's been on the calendar for a long time and that's going to be a highly significant meeting. But this other one, called by Archbishop Justin Welby and he announced this a month or so after Kigali, and I was astonished when I heard about it Is it an attempt to play ecclesiastical poker?
Speaker 5:Well, thanks, dominic. It's a joy to be with you on the podcast and just to say that I can't really speak with much clarity or knowledge on what Archbishop Welby is hoping for. But we should assume, based on all the games that have been played I think poker is a good analogy over the last decade and longer from Canterbury that this is yet another attempt to obfuscate, to confuse, to get a win for the traditional revisionist structures, and my prayer is simply that all of the Bible-loving global primates can see through that. Hopefully many will see that ahead of time and not go. That's always the best of these meetings, because even showing up at these meetings, the challenge is that you show up even if you get offended and leave early. You'll be checked as affirmative and you could find yourself being used your just basic presence being used as affirming Canterbury's agenda. But I do hope that folks can see through it. I hope there's clarity.
Speaker 1:And that has happened time and time again Absolutely, and we saw it actually spectacularly with the 2022 Lambeth Conference.
Speaker 5:When you saw, after Lambeth 22, the shock and the sadness by so many good Bible-believing bishops who showed up in good faith, in earnest, listening to the official stance that came out of Canterbury, out of the communion office, saying come, let's have an honest conversation. And when they arrived they realized that it was a highly curated, carefully put together monologue. Really it wasn't really a conversation at all. There was already a predetermined outcome and you saw the great sadness and offense.
Speaker 5:And this Dominic, as we both know, is what happens again and again is that Again, orthodox Bible-believing folks will show up at meetings in earnest saying, well, of course, I want to be part of the solution, I don't want to be part of the problem and I'm willing to show up and have a hard meeting and have some vigorous fellowship, as we'd say. And they'll go in with that sort of hope that everyone comes with the same perspective. We're all Christians here, right, we're all going to listen for the Spirit's voice and unfortunately end up often walking into these kind of meetings and get used. Simply by being present, they get their name checked off and then all of a sudden they're being used towards an already predetermined outcome for these meetings. So it's just one of these things. I'm praying that there's clarity even this next week for anyone who's planning on attending. Perhaps they'd change their mind and, if they do go, that they will speak with clarity and make sure that their presence is not used by the community structure for even more confusion within the world.
Speaker 1:What I might do now, paul, is put you on hold for a moment and we will go to the chair of the Global South, archbishop Justin Baddiorama, in South Sudan. He is the convener of that second big meeting of Orthodox Anglicans, going to meet in Cairo in June. Archbishop Justin, thank you for joining us. What is your take on this move by the Archbishop of Canterbury to call this meeting in Rome next week?
Speaker 6:Thank you and greetings to you from Juba, south Sudan. We have heard about the meeting and we have received invitation to go to Rome. We have received invitation to go to Rome but, in accordance with the Ashwines, the statement that we issued, some of us may not be able to be part of that meeting in Rome, but otherwise we pray for our brothers who will be going there and we pray for my dear brother, archbishop Justin Welby, who will be chair there, and we pray for my dear brother, archbishop Justin Welby, who will be chairing the meeting. That the Holy Spirit will guide them well and will remind them about the importance of upholding the biblical truth within the Anglican Communion.
Speaker 1:Archbishop Badiarama, I'm actually surprised that anybody Orthodox would go to this meeting in Rome. But you are understanding. Some primates who are biblically faithful are actually planning to go. Is that your understanding?
Speaker 6:Yes, that could be right, because there are all kinds of tricks being done to influence people to go and attend the meeting. So those who take it lightly may go and attend the meeting, but those who understand what the truth is may not be part of that meeting. Because, as Global South, we did say we cannot sit together with those who have intentionally violated the biblical truth that we received from our forefathers. We cannot go and share anything with them unless they repent. But we are seeing there is no sign of repentance. What we are hearing, just let's be together, continue to be together in unity as we continue sinning, but we are saying no, we cannot continue. But we are saying no, we cannot continue in sin and being together. So those who take it lightly may go, but most of us in the global south may not be part of that meeting.
Speaker 1:And you say all sorts of tricks and inducements have been offered to go. What kind of things are you hearing?
Speaker 6:We have been hearing about two or three things, of which one of it is that let's all come. The chair might be a different person, but we should come. Then our response is that our concern is not about who chairs the meeting. Our concern is about those who have intentionally violated the orthodox biblical teaching. We cannot sit and discuss with them. That has been our concern, and that's one thing. And that's one thing. And then the other thing is actually resources also is part of luring some people to go. That is another means. So those are the kind of stories which we are hearing.
Speaker 1:And these people are actually offering resources to churches if the primate does attend this gathering.
Speaker 6:Those are the kind of rumors we are hearing. Yes, and also saying if we are all there, somebody else may chair the meeting. But those who violated, those who are continuing in sin, will be part of the meeting. How can we be together with them? That is our argument.
Speaker 1:Now the more important meeting is the one in six weeks time that you'll be chairing and you're going to be attempting to bring Orthodox Anglican leaders representing 85% of the Anglican communion together in Cairo. And now we were told in Kigali last year that although the in principle decision had been made to reset the Anglican Communion, the actual hard work, the detail, would be worked on and brought to this meeting in six weeks time. How are you going on the hard work, the detail for this meeting?
Speaker 6:Yes, in six weeks' time all the Anglican Orthodox will be gathering in Cairo and we have set objectives for that gathering, which are actually three main objectives. One is for prayers praying for our beloved communion and praying for ourselves. And the second objective will be to mobilize and encourage ourselves to take the gospel out into the world. That is our main objective. We will not waste time in talking, but we are preparing to move out with the authentic gospel message to the needy world. And, of course, the third objective is to elect new leaders who will take the fellowship of Orthodox Anglicans forward. Those are the three main objectives and together we'll see how do we go about resetting our Anglican communion, of which we all agree together that the covenantal structure is the main tool for resetting the communion.
Speaker 1:Now, if I could just come back to preaching the gospel, what are the kinds of initiatives that you're looking to take in Global South to evangelize the world that you were talking about a moment?
Speaker 6:ago. One way is actually to equip the leaders. So the current leaders, we move around the world, we encourage them, we equip them. And then the second move will be seeking authentic gospel preachers and teachers, moving them around the world to continue to remind, to encourage and to teach the biblical truth. Come out with some curriculum and revised curriculum that will be taught in our seminaries to prepare new leaders for the future leadership in the church. And we will also look at the catechism. What is it that we will give to the new converts to strengthen them, to teach them and to prepare them about their faith? So there are many other things that we will actually strategize, mobilize and prepare ourselves to take it out into the world and we are ready for that. And on top of it is praying and supporting each other in all the challenges that we face in the ministry.
Speaker 1:Archbishop Justin Badiarama, thanks for speaking with us.
Speaker 6:Thank you, my dear brother, for this moment of togetherness and I'm glad and what I may say is that it is a high time in the history of the church that we take that same spirit which was there in the 18th century, the spirit of revival, of moving out with the authentic gospel message, as our forefathers did. So it is our time, especially this generation, to come out, to step out and to stand strong with the gospel message.
Speaker 1:That is Archbishop Justin Badiorama, and on the line from Juba in South Sudan he is the chair of the Global South Fellowship of Churches, and listening to that conversation, on the line from Texas in the United States, is the new General Secretary of GAFCON, paul Donison. And Paul, you will be part of those conversations in Cairo as an observer representing GAFCON, but also I'm imagining you'll be saying some things there. What are you hoping will come out of those meetings in Cairo?
Speaker 5:Well, it's a joy to be there as an observer and I'm so thankful for the invite. As the new General Secretary of GAFCON, a big part of my role right now is building relationships. I'm still very new in my role, so this will be a wonderful opportunity to meet some people I've never met before. But my hope for the meeting is that we will see in Cairo what always should happen when the councils of the church meet faithfully, listening to the Lord standing under scripture, listening to what the Spirit is saying to the church, that we will see the mission move forward.
Speaker 5:You know, and I think that part of what GSFA's particular charism has been and is intending to be, as we've stated in the Kigali commitment, is that they're building biblical doctrinal structures for the reset of the Anglican communion, and so I'm just so fascinated to see what that looks like and I've read the Cairo Covenant, I've talked to others about it. It'll be wonderful to see that assembly in action and see what the Lord does with it that are altogether fully Orthodox and in places where you've got a revisionist region within the Anglican communion, where we can then start helping identify leaders and bishops and, as we've done in the past, actually raise up new dioceses, new provinces, recognize the faithful where they are. So we continue to do that work in GAFCON, and so it'd be wonderful to see how these two charisms continue to work side by side and in partnership, because, again, you know, dominic, the overlap between GAFCON and GSFA as far as membership is enormous. I mean, it's a tremendous overlap.
Speaker 1:So it'd be wonderful to see in Cairo what that looks like, and we heard from Justin Badiarama about plans for the Global South. What's next for GAFCON? I know you're pretty new in the job, but already I'm getting the sense that things are ratcheting up in these last few months, and it's been exciting to watch that from a distance. What are you up to?
Speaker 5:We've got, obviously, this year already, some early exciting events that have taken place. We had our seventh Bishops Training Institute in Kigali back in February, which gathered together I think it was 15 bishops and 15 of their wives, along with another whole faculty from all over the world, and so I think we had something like 14 different nations represented and all together over the days, together building a sense of what does it mean to be Orthodox bishops today, faithful bishops today. That was a big win and very exciting. We have our eighth coming up now in October. Bti 8 will be again in Kigali in October. We're so thankful for the leadership of people like Bishop Henry Orombe, who's our BTI director, the retired Bishop of Uganda so wonderful faculty opinion. We've got some new conferences we're going to be forming, we're expanding our secretariat team, our staff. Those are just a few of the things, but I'm very excited about the opportunities and I do feel like we've been ratcheting it up, by God.
Speaker 1:And just a month after that big conference in June in Cairo, you're coming to Australia for the Australian GAFCON conference.
Speaker 5:That's right. I'm so looking forward to coming to the Australasia GAFCON conference in early July and that'll be my first time in that part of the world. I'm sure not my last time, first of many trips. So it'd be great to meet leaders, to build on those relationships. And really I'm excited about these moments because, again, like I said the same thing about the gathering in Cairo Every time we can get together, you know a control verse for me, for most of my Christian life, has been Hebrews 10, 24 and 25.
Speaker 5:You know it says do not cease meeting together, as has become the habit of some, but stir up one another to love and good works, especially as you see, the day approach, the day approach. And for me, just that work of showing up and being together, fellowshipping together, praying together, reading the Bible together, listening to the Lord together, just frankly, building good friendships in the gospel together, is exciting. And I think this is how mission works. It's always been how it works. And I think, as we go forward, whether we're talking about the work in GSFA, whether we're talking about the work in GAFCON, whatever work we're doing, it's got to be based on fellowshipping together, koinonia, partnership, building those relationships. So I'm really looking forward to that meeting in Australia. That's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Paul, thank you very much for speaking to us. Thanks, Dominic, and we will watch this with interest. That is Bishop Paul Donison. He is the General Secretary of the GAFCON movement within World Anglicanism and also in this episode we've been speaking with Justin Badiarama. He is the Archbishop of South Sudan and the Chair of the Global South Movement within the Anglican Communion. My name is Dominic Steele. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon on the Pastor's Heart.
