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It's the Pastors Heart and Dominic Steele, and today a Pastors Heart for our kids with James Galea. But before we come to our topic today, can I ask you to become a regular financial partner of the Pastors Heart? There have been a group of people who've been supporting us and we're super grateful, but we need to grow that base. It's been a while since we talked about needing assistance, but our costs are up and so we're asking for your help. We'd love it if you could go to patreoncom, slash the Pastors Heart and become a regular partner with us.
Speaker 1:It is hard for those of us who are Pastors and yet didn't grow up as Pastors Kids to really understand the life of the child of a pastor, and even for those who grew up as children of pastors, there's every chance they've forgotten. Kath and I, we have three kids, now young adults, but neither of us grew up as Pastors Kids. But James Galea is with us, senior pastor himself at Freshwater Anglican Church on Sydney's Northern Beaches and grew up as a Pastors Kid in Western Sydney. James, instead of us starting with the Pastors Heart, maybe we could start with the heart of the Pastors Kid and what was going on in your heart as a Pastors Kid growing up.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's an unusual experience which you don't think is unusual until you look back on it, because you just grow up in being a Pastors Kid and so having the experience of raising Pastors Kids now is all like to call them children and also being a Pastors Kid. It's a unique experience, I think. The closest probably it is analogy wise of probably being a Politicians Kid. You know, I can't imagine what it's like to be the son of a PK or Anthony.
Speaker 1:Albanese, you're under scrutiny for having a Chairman's Lounge.
Speaker 2:pass the nation is looking on you, thoughts about what your dad should do, shouldn't do you know that kind of thing, and so it's probably a bit like that, but at a much smaller level, and so you are in this sort of fishbowl kind of experience and it's unique. But and there's come through that, joys there's a little of amazing experiences. I mean, I was part of a church growing up which was started as a Bible study and it grew to a large, healthy evangelical church in Western Sydney and the joys of seeing many people become Christians. But also there's a lot of challenges and things you're exposed to which other Christians growing up in the church aren't experiencing.
Speaker 1:Barnabas Piper in his book says Pastors, kids are so often messed up, right being your observational.
Speaker 2:Not as confident. Nessed up, nessed up, oh I, I wouldn't say messed up as much as other people are messed up. I mean, we're all messed up in many ways. I think you're just privy to more of the church life than others, and so you see the messiness of that as well, and so that can affect you in different ways.
Speaker 1:Can you overhear the kitchen conversations or?
Speaker 2:Kitchen conversations. You, yeah, and I think just also too, it's being aware that I've had a very positive experience of being a pastor's kid and that's the largest, because church was healthy, dad was a good dad. I'm more extroverted. I've got a sister who's introverted, you know, having people in that home was more a drain on her than for me, and so everyone has a different experience in this and so it's a range of different things, and then the result of that can be different as well.
Speaker 1:As you've talked toI know you've talked to some other people who are pastors, kids, in preparation for today. What are some of the challenges that people have had?
Speaker 2:I think I remember a moment it was about 15 or so years ago being on a youth camp which washad a lot of Christians from different parts of Sydney and there was a lot of pastors, kids and missionary kids and at this camp there was a seminar for them and I was part of it and we were in circles, about 30 of them, and I just said a statement, like some of you may feel, like your dad's ministry is more important than you, and about half of them just sort of nodded and that wasit was a haunting nod, really, just saying that their experience is sort of church ministry is here and their dad's values and priorities and then they're somewhere down here and that wasthat sort of scared me and the sort of just seeing them nod because the reality is in their world. I think there's a hard balance between a fine line, between serving how to sacrificial ministry and workaholism, that most members of church don't know the difference. But in a family you can tell the difference. You can tell if yourwhy is your dad doing these things and just I think, just like the antidote for greed, generosity, I think the antidote for workaholism is time. And so if there's time spent away from ministry on you as a family. Then you can see your dad's priorities coming out and you know Jesus is everything but church is not, and those kind of things. So, yeah, I think at the end of the day, I experience a positive experience, because I remember a moment where dad would have time together with us probably once a week or so each of us and whereas time where he would spend with just us.
Speaker 2:And there was a moment where he was a knock at the door and we were about to go have time together and dad said and the person at the door said I need to meet with you, ray, I need to meet with you. And in their mind it was an emergency. It was an emergency but that's it. I'm having time together. My son and we can meet later. And that was a profound moment for me because I realised the priorities of dad were I sat, that he worked hard but I was a priority in his life and he promised his time and we went off and spent time together. So the time element is an important thing. That's why a lot of pastors, kids holidays are very special because dad or mum is away from the church, with families present, active, and that's where holidays for a lot of pastors. Kids are very special times because dad is with them. So it's just not limiting time with kids to holidays, but time in the week to week as well.
Speaker 1:Now you told that little illustration of ministry was more important than me. Yeah, and I mean, I felt a knife in the heart at that point and you described kind of a knife in the heart at that point as you've. I'm sure that moment has impacted your own parenting, do you? Want to just.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So for me, wanting to spend time with my kids, it's the balance of wanting them to grow in their faith and see that life's not all about them but also to valuing them, and so that I think it's a hard balance, but I've tried to, you know, do time together with each of my kids and listen to them, get to know them.
Speaker 2:I think the knocks at the door when you live in a rectory don't happen as much as they used to, but what does happen is the phone is more present now, and so I've had the battle of putting phone away, taking that time together, being at the dinner table, present, phone away, and that's my battle in terms of being present. I may be physically present, but am I emotionally present with them is my struggle. And so fighting for that because I, yeah, I may be physically present with them you know they did the same that kind of thing but I just know I'm. I may be a loof and sometimes they can see it. They'd be like dad, dad, you know they can see I'm thinking about the budget's not in a good place, or that.
Speaker 2:I'm an arsehole breakdown and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:It was Saturday for me last Saturday and Kath and I were doing something, and then suddenly I thought of a better opening line for the sermon for Sunday. Yeah, and I've got to go and write this down before I forget. Yes, but I must have been distracted in my interaction with her beforehand.
Speaker 2:And so just that, the the suck of ministry, I think for some pastors kids. They become bitter towards it because it sucked the life out of dad, it sucked the life out of mum and and they bore the brunt of that because they didn't have the Dada Ran the way that they should have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awareness Other people knowing things about your life. How did you go with that and what's advice for church members who know things about? I don't know you playing soccer or whatever.
Speaker 2:Or you're soccer win or you're yeah yeah, we had the philosophy growing up where we could, dad would use us in sermon illustrations if asked for permission, but if he didn't, we'd get five bucks. So when you're a kid, five bucks for your dignity wasn't too bad, and so we had that sort of deal. But you do mainly through sermons. People know things about you and they think they know you as well, and so I think there's a goodness to that, because the qualifications of an LD is a bit of a what's life like at home, is the past of the same at home as they are on a Sunday, and so character and the way you lead and love your family is important. So there's a goodness to that.
Speaker 2:But then I think unintentionally, the amount of sermon illustrations or the appropriateness of them, I've sort of realized like I will ask my kids, can I tell this story in a sermon, to ask for their permission. But sometimes I'll say yes and I'm thinking I actually got to think is, in 10 years time, do they still want this story being out there? Because as a 10 year old they're like, oh yeah, this is great, I'm before this. But as a 17 year old, would they still want it? So there's a bit of wisdom that you need to have as the adult of, as a goodness in sharing, asking for permission to share it, but also to thinking future them. Would they still want this story? And so it's appropriate to be told in the future, if that makes sense. So I think it's the sermon that it's the big part where people know things about you and that kind of thing, because there's an openness and the goodness to it.
Speaker 1:But there's a line. What about people making assumptions about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a hard one because people just assume oh, you're a past, this kid, your faith is growing great, you're rejoicing the Lord and you don't have doubts, and so I think doubts is a big one Is there. Am I allowed to have doubts and ask questions and not feel like I have to have all the answers? Because you do grow up in church and you know, you are aware of the Bible, you know the Bible verses, you know the Columbia Canons, songs, that kind of thing. This is a familiarity and you know what the answer is is Jesus the Bible. And you can spit them out. But then there's a healthiness in am I allowed to actually have the doubt?
Speaker 2:So I went through a big season of doubt of is Jesus God For about a year, year and a half. And how old were you then? Oh, I was about 18. And so but and I was also a youth leader at the time and so I was trying to wrestle like is Jesus God? And the whole factors brought about these doubts. But it was that journey.
Speaker 2:But what was helpful was I was allowed to go on that journey and I just saw other people at church. They went on journeys of doubts and came out the other side and grew stronger. So they get me hope. But a culture where I was able to share and wrestle with and ask questions was profoundly helpful. I wasn't shamed into thinking oh, you're a past, this kid, you can't have any doubts, you should be fine. Because often when people have doubts it's more reflection on them because they're thinking well, if you're doubting and you don't have the confidence, what about me? And they get worried and so they think oh no, you shouldn't doubt, just believe, just believe. But and that was very helpful and by the end of that year and a half I came out with a conviction no, jesus is God. But I had to go on that journey. So, being allowed to do that, not assuming that theology, their life, is all neatly packaged up.
Speaker 1:So you were treated differently by the youth leaders because you were the son of the senior leader.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes you can get fast tracked into leadership roles because of the other person's kid and not go through the normal reference checks that others would. So sometimes you get fired and that's not healthy for anyone. I can think you need to go through the proper process of character reference commitment to church. Like everyone else, sometimes you get treated differently.
Speaker 2:I remember this is different to the youth learning experience, but I think it was seven, eight, going to the morning tea table taking way too much food than I should, and then someone said, oh, you shouldn't do that, you're a pastor's kid. And for me I was like, oh, like I still remember that moment, obviously, and I think the problem with it was not that we're calling me out, but they should have said oh, you know, we don't do that, we want to be generous because we're Christians, not because we're pastors kids. And so I think there's a healthiness in being part of church community where I'm being discipled not just by my parents but by others like my family. But coming back to and this is what I say to a church, treat pastors kids as Christians, not as pastors kids, and because we do need each other, grow in sanctification it's a communal thing, but focus on their faith and treat them as you would others who are growing and then are long leech and love the Lord Jesus, who are living in grace. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, as you were just saying that, I was thinking my wife is really clear on. We've got to focus on dishonesty, disrespect and disobedience with our kids and not sweat the small stuff like what kind of clothes they wear and yeah, I'm pretty sure, some people kind of raised eyebrows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, different clothes. It's picking your battles, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people did expect you to be the perfect angel, so yeah I, the church I grew up in, was there wasn't a Reverend Lovejoy Simpsons kind of pressure. Yeah, I would say it was a healthy mix. There was examples that I shared before where it was not great, but generally speaking it was it was good, and I think having leaders like a youth leader who discipled me, a guy called Kev, was profoundly influential in that and he treated me just like one of the other teenage boys and so that was really helpful in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did your parents particularly do? Well, as you think back, I think they.
Speaker 2:I think a couple of things. One is the time together element was looking back. That was the men, a lot so that, and my love language is quality time, so maybe, but I think my sisters would share the same, so that time each week of okay, I know dad's busy, he's got a lot to do, you know, leading a church plant and all that, but there was time when I knew he would spend with me. I think also to one of the big things, to be honest, was them saying sorry. So, years as teenagers, young adults, there were certain things that they did which, either through our sharing or them realizing that they weren't great in certain areas, in parenting, and rather than hiding behind that well, no parents perfect, you know, we're all just making up rather hiding behind that excuse, they owned it and said sorry, and I can still remember those moments of them saying sorry for the things that they didn't do as well as parenting.
Speaker 2:In that just meant the world, and I think that that's one of the things that I want to do in my parenting there's mistakes that I'm going to make, I'm not going to do a perfect job at this, and that if I live in grace, if my sin has been forgiven, then I can own it and listen and the things that I've fallen in in apologize to them. That's in, even though they're good parents. That, for me, made them great parents, because they own their sin, confess it and ask for forgiveness in the ways in which they weren't as good in parenting. Yeah, that was he healing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean you grow up, I mean your dad not as prominent as somebody like I don't know, brian Houston or Mark Driscoll or John Piper or something, but in our circles in Sydney pretty prominent and on major convention platforms in Australia and that kind of thing. How did that make it more complex for you?
Speaker 2:I think it wasn't. It didn't, it wasn't a negative thing. I do think if you're the son of a pastor who has been publicly us stand down for various reasons inappropriate behavior, then that brings a shame and sticks to you. I don't know what that's like. I can't imagine what that's like. If your dad's more a controversial figure for various reasons, then I think that would be harder Dad's not that he's. So in my mind it was a positive thing. But I do think also to the you, some pastors, kids and I do can earn to this there is a pride or entailment that can come about as well. So sometimes there's the bitterness extreme, but there's also there's a pride, entitlement where you can find your identity in being a past, as kid and the connections and they can start small of, just like you get the leftover food from a meeting or that kind of thing oh, you get these sort of special things. You can start there.
Speaker 1:You're first at the church to check out what's in the church fridge. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you kind of get those kind of export benefits all the way to like being known, and if it's a positive thing that can get to your head and create an unhealthy pride as well, so there's that extreme as well. So just knowing your own heart is an important thing, because, yeah, so I think it depends on what perception in the past, the past that has community wise, can affect you, and then that can either lead in different directions bitterness, pride. For me it was the more the battle with pride.
Speaker 1:Hmm really yeah, yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just think you like. My default is all like when I became a Christian, it was letting go of the good things I'd done and realizing they absolutely didn't matter in terms of my salvation. So I've always battled with that in that space. And so, in terms of pride of either what I've done, who I know, my achievements and growing up that is a past year that was always my wrestling was what I've done. All the good things I've done didn't mean anything in terms of my salvation, and so that has been, and always been, my battle. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Barnabas Parker says few people can do hypocrisy more smoothly than a pastor's kid. Expand comments yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think yeah, because you can easily live one way on a Sunday and a different way either at home or at school, and because you can particularly hypocrisy can be, you can act a different character on a Sunday, act a different person on a Monday, in the more extreme ends yeah yeah, so everyone battles with hypocrisy at one level, but I think there's just an extremity to it and, being a pastor's kid, because of that communal nature, the spotlights on you, that kind of thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Identity issues and sorting out your own identity as a person yourself. I imagine it's. I mean, it's something that everyone has to go through, but what are the complexities in sorting out your own identity distinct from high profile dad?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was funny. One thing that was helpful in me growing up in my faith was actually moving. I think I might have been maybe 13, 14, 15, something like that, moving from the morning service and going to the evening service, and that was that step was actually me saying I'm going to go to church on my own. Dad was still the pastor of the evening church but it was separated from my family so I was owning my faith and choosing to go. Those kind of moments.
Speaker 2:School camps where sorry, christian camps were very helpful because I was away from the local church community, with meeting with other Christians, growing my own faith that allowed me to be a Christian and not be seen as a pastor's kid, so things that were separate from that. Moving out of the home, actually, when I realized oh, people don't just turn up to your house, you have to invite them in, because I was just used to people always being there in the house and so those kind of steps of independence were healthy and helpful because it was. Is this faith just one I've inherited or is it my own and my identity in that? So those steps of independence and parents allowing me to do that was helpful.
Speaker 1:What about teaching something different to what Dad might have taught, like forming your own theological thoughts and ending up disagreeing with him on a point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well, even me, at a simple thing of not being in Western Sydney ministering. There is not a theological thing but me ministering in all the major different parts of Sydney.
Speaker 1:When he's given his life to Western Sydney. Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so that it may sound very mild, but that was a sacrifice in some ways. Oh, that was a. I'm not a sacrifice, but more like a. That was a tug of the heart because it was different to what Dad was doing, but that's actually been healthy for me in ministering a different part of Sydney, in my own pastoring journey yeah, so where I am and not where I thought I'd be growing up, but it's actually been healthy for me in that separation and a different, avoiding comparison in some ways. Yeah, because I wanted to compare myself with that in terms of character and with those kind of things and be like him in godliness, but I don't have to be like him in everything. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Now lots of our regular pastors heart audience are people in pastoral ministry, but I'm assuming that for this episode we have some kids of pastors watching, listening, engaging with us, and probably some adult kids of pastors, some of whom it's going well with Jesus and some of whom they've walked away from Jesus. What do you want to say to those different groups of people? Because you obviously talk to people in that situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in both. I think if you're walking well with the Lord, I think God has placed it's not an accident that he's placed you in the family, that he's placed you in he's as a pastor's kid, you have a unique experience and he's using that for your own discipleship, growth and so, with the challenges or the joys of that, it is his discipling you and so see it in that through that lens, in terms of where the trials come and temptations come. Use it in terms of your growth and love of Jesus. I think, if you've walked away from the Lord or if it's been a very negative experience and burnt out or whatever it might be, I and you've particularly had a negative experience of your dad because he might have, you know, for whatever reason, I think, go to your.
Speaker 2:Don't compare your dad, sorry, do compare your dad to your heavenly father, not your heavenly father to your dad, because heavenly father is that product. I always think of the prodigal son. He's the father on that doorstep that waiting for us to come. He's not, you know, disappointed. We didn't achieve certain things, be certain things, let us down. He's heavenly father is that one, that the porch waiting for us, no matter what we've done, never come to come home, and so that would be my advice is just know that God's love is constant and is there every day, and whatever that moment that you may realise like, oh, I may have had a bad experience of church or being a pastor's kid, but yet God loves me, his son died for me and he wants me to come home. Just always remember that, because that truth is liberating and yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, as you, as you spoke to Stan, I was thinking I think James is speaking to the person who, well, it wasn't great being the pastor's kid, but it wasn't that. Actually, dad was profoundly wicked, yes, yeah. And yet there are some pastors who have spectacularly done the wrong thing, and we have watched great falls from grace, you know, a pastor being arrested or something like that, for something that was seriously wrong in the eyes of the world and the eyes of the church. What's your word to that child?
Speaker 2:I think I cannot imagine what that would be like. I think that is just the horror, the shame, the embarrassment is like. It would be profound. I think my word to them would just be God is different to what you've experienced. Like God's, if you've experienced that that is not what God intended for shepherds over his flock, and acknowledging that it is like in terms of the failure and then, but also to going to the fact that wherever he has failed, jesus is not, and just going back to who Jesus is his gentleness, his kindness, his perfection, his consistency and who he is the character of Christ and not going to him and then carrying him, would be my encouragement.
Speaker 2:But I think a lot of people it's just they don't, they haven't had this experience. There are some, but I think most people it's just normal day to day interactions and they've decided they've had the same experiences as another one who's still a Christian, but they've decided no, I don't want to follow Jesus anymore. And there could be a whole range of reasons for that. They might blame being a pastor's kid, but sometimes it's just the love of this world, this materialism, and so they've gone in that direction and that I've experienced that, but that I made it as a profound grief as a parent.
Speaker 2:So my words to pastors who are experiencing that just be responsible for what you're responsible for, as in none of us are responsible for making our children Christians. That's God's job. He's the one who turns the light on, so to speak. But we are responsible for the way we've behaved and presented at Jesus in different ways. And so I think, as pastors going back to what I said, my parents in terms of what they were responsible for with their actions, and apologizing for that, living in grace, because I do think a genuine sorry is the beginning of healing for a lot of the relationships.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for coming in Pleasure For sharing James Gallier, our guest on the Pastors Heart. James is the senior minister of Freshwater Anglican Church on the Northern Beaches. You've been with us on the Pastors Heart. My name's Dominic Steele. We'll look forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon.