Andrew Leslie is encouraging us to first take a step back from practical concerns and reflect on the beauty and wisdom of the bible’s teaching about manhood and womanhood.
In much contemporary debate about gender we focus on practical questions about what different people can do.
However the head of Moore Theological College’s Doctrine Department says the picture of gender in the beginning is not an arbitrary divine imposition that comes with its own set of arbitrary rules and instructions. Rather, the man and the woman together – and only together – irreducibly different and yet one inconceivable without the other, created a microcosm of God’s own very being and character and glory, summing up the wisdom and creative word of God.
Andrew Leslie gave the keynote addresses at the Priscilla and Aquila Conference in Sydney. Talk One: https://bit.ly/49ABygt Talk Two: https://bit.ly/3ORxWhI
He wants us as pastors to more fully appreciate the beauty of the bible’s teaching.
--
Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.
Andrew Leslie is encouraging us to first take a step back from practical concerns and reflect on the beauty and wisdom of the bible’s teaching about manhood and womanhood.
In much contemporary debate about gender we focus on practical questions about what different people can do.
However the head of Moore Theological College’s Doctrine Department says the picture of gender in the beginning is not an arbitrary divine imposition that comes with its own set of arbitrary rules and instructions. Rather, the man and the woman together – and only together – irreducibly different and yet one inconceivable without the other, created a microcosm of God’s own very being and character and glory, summing up the wisdom and creative word of God.
Andrew Leslie gave the keynote addresses at the Priscilla and Aquila Conference in Sydney. Talk One: https://bit.ly/49ABygt Talk Two: https://bit.ly/3ORxWhI
He wants us as pastors to more fully appreciate the beauty of the bible’s teaching.
--
Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.
We
Speaker 2:the pastor's heart in Dominic Steele, and the beauty of men and women in God's purpose in design, and Andrew Lesley is his youngest. A fresh approach today. On the relationship between the sexes, there was a big conference at Sydney's More Theological College run by the Priscilla and Aquila Center. And the main presentations by Andrew Leslie caused quite a stir. My friends there saying I thought I knew Genesis one to three. I do know Genesis one to three. But Andrew has been thinking all over again. He argued there's a downside to much contemporary Christian thinking about the relationship between the sexes, both within marriage and in the church community, that we focus so much on the issues around what we can and can't do is Christian women and men. We ask questions like what does headship look like in practice, what does submission look like, whether women should preach in church to mix congregations or whether women should lead bible study groups in mixed congregational settings, and we become focused online in Paul's writing and debates about meaning and sentences. Ephesians five, one Corinthians eleven fourteen, one Timothy two, And Andrew's thesis was, well, that's all well and good, but he's suggesting that we might fail to grasp the true beauty and proper proportions of God's wisdom here. Let me give you a magnificent paragraph from Andrew Lesley. The picture of gender in the beginning is not an arbitrary divine in position that comes with its own set of arbitrary rules and instructions rather than the man and the woman together and only together, irreducibly different and yet one inconceivable without the other created a microcosm of God's own very being and character and glory, summing up the wisdom and creative word of God. Well, buckle your seat belt the head of more theological colleges, doctrine department, Andrew Lesley, joins us on the past decide today, and I'm looking forward to having my brain stretch Andrew, if I'm right in understanding your lectures the other day, you're saying you wanna deepen the conversation and pointing our pastor's hearts to appreciate the fuller beauty of the bible's teaching.
Speaker 1:Yes. Thanks, Dominic. Thanks for that introduction. That's exactly what I wanted to do. It's not that the practical questions that you mentioned are unimportant, of course, that we sense they're deeply relevant to our own lives and the lives of our church But I wanted to take a step back from those questions of how does this apply in practice And just reflect on the wisdom of this instruction as it sort of woven into the the way in which God's not has revealed himself in creation and particularly in the context of of redeeming creation in Christ. Because I think particularly in light of the way in the west, a lot of the these teachings are so countercolor control. And increasingly, we feel the pressure of that as as Christian people. What we need to have, I think, is we face that reality. And as we reflect on the way in which these principles apply applies to us, is a deep confidence in the rightness of it and the wisdom of it. And that that's sort of what I was trying to do in the talks.
Speaker 2:You wanna move people from saying, well, I know I have to think like this because God says
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To actually see this is beautiful and wrong. That's right. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's the – because if we don't see the wisdom of it, to see that it's beautiful and that it's right, I think The risk is that we will back particularly as we feel the pressure for our neighbors who are constantly telling us that, no, this isn't right. This isn't wise. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What I really appreciate is some I mean, eyes a a pastor had had ten zillion conversations about these passages. And I thought I'd heard every argument. But you took me into new thinking. And so I'm I'm taking it that you must have, I don't know, been given this assignment twelve months ago and spent a lot of time thinking about these chapters?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's certainly been percolating in my around in my head for a while. And some of these, so what I did in the first talk was to look at the way in which the creation of Adam and Eve is situated in in in a kind of pattern in those opening chapters of Genesis that that reflect god's creative activity in broad terms. So the six days of creation as they're described in in in chapter one, kind of recapitulated and summed up in that sort of, you know, that word, which again is not not Leslie invention. It's it's the way in which theologians of the past would speak about him and Eve as a kind of microcosm of God's creative activity. And and I think that so that's something I've been thinking about for a while.
Speaker 2:You used two words formed and feeling. Yeah. And yes, this one. And and as I was going through your presentation, I thought, oh, that's interesting. You're spending a lot of time on formed and filling And I wonder why he's doing that. And what's that got to do with gender? And then you showed me later on, but just take me through that once again.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yep. So I mean, a number of scholars, and it said so again, I'm sort of again, there's nothing original in in one sense, but I was just trying to drawdraw some of these things to to our attention. And a number of scholars have noticed the way in which, you know, that that opening description of creation at the beginning, you know, the formlessness and the voidness and the void the emptiness of creation at the beginning. Is is answered in the in the way in which God's creative activity unfolds in chapter one in the first three days in a sense kind of answering that first creating, that forming, that which was yet unformed. Mhmm. And then the second three days filling that which was formed, but get uninhabitable. And and then in chapter two, as and again, as as A number of scholars, biblical scholars, and theologians have noticed in recent times is the way in which that pattern is recapitulated in chapter two. But the focus then is on not so much the earth as a hole, but on the garden has a kind of sanctified space within creation. And then right at the part of that, the man and the woman who in in in a very concentrated fashion and reflect that broader pattern in chapter one. And and again, a number of scholars have have drawn tension to the way in which later on in the bible is as the as the tabernacle was described for instance. In the book of the Lipidicus or the instructions that are given to Moses in excess. And just echoing a lot of the patterns in chapter one and chapter two, which is of Genesis, which is I think led people to to see the way in which God when he created the world in the beginning, created it as a kind of a cosmic sanctuary, a cosmic temple. With the man and the woman as his image there is right at the center, if you like, almost the holy of holies within this garden space that he gave them that he set apart for them as it were to to reflect the likeness of god in in bringing that garden paradise and the order of that and the peace and the the abundance of that garden paradise to the whole of his creative activity.
Speaker 2:So it's a it's a further if you like endorsement of the complementary nature of the man and the woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's that's right. And
Speaker 2:so
Speaker 1:The way in which Adam is created, saying, to two is described as being created from the dust. He is formed, if you like, in a way that echoes the first three days of creation. But then he's placed in the garden
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Placed with this vocation that's given to him to to tend the garden Mhmm. To to bring the garden, you know, which is sort of pregnant with potential to its it's it's abundance reflecting the worry of God, but recognizing the fact that actually that vocation is only possible with the formation of the woman from his side to be his helper. So the fruitfulness of the garden formed, not yet filled, is only something that actually in the end is possible with the complementarity of the pair. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:He's been quite a bit of time thinking about typology, then Adam as a type, and then Christ as an anti type. And I noticed lots and lots of questions afterwards, which means lots of people, hang on. I haven't quite got that. And haven't quite got that. So yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What I was trying to do in the second talk, the reason why I did the two talks and the two talks don't make sense innocent really apart from what I don't know. Was to and I draw attention to the way in which Adam and Adam together with his bride is a passion And I think typology knows in layman's terms, it's really a way of noticing patterns and a way in which God has water things and patent things as as kind of symbols, if you like, of a reality that's actually only summed up in in Christ. Christ. In this case, Christ in the church, Christ and his bride So and you see the what you see in the New Testament a number of times, the way in which Christ's relationship to the church. Is described in in ways that reflect that pattern in the beginning Mhmm. Man and the woman together. I mean, most famously in Ephesians chapter five, but of course, you know, there's those visions of of the the new heavens and the new earth in Revelation. Chapter nine, twenty twenty one. And and so we're actually only gonna make sense of that reality in light of the passion.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But likewise, we only actually now make sense of the passion in light of that reality. So, typology is kind of acknowledging the fact that there are patterns that point to a reality. But recognizing the difference between the pattern, which is called the type and the reality the anti type is really, really important. The anti type Christ in the church, that's the reality. Mhmm. And in a sense, what we recognize about the way in which the pattern is described in Genesis one and two, we've got to recognize the fact that particularly in light of the fall, in light of the impact of sin on our life in Adam. That's not the reality. The reality is actually Christ and the church. So that's and then the second talk I was trying to actually show how the the pattern is fulfilled in the life of the church. And it's only as we understand the reality crop as it's fulfilled and crossed in the church then I think then we can see the way in which that reality is mapped over our old life that in this age, in this age that continues to be the life of Adam. And I think that's sort of what's going on
Speaker 2:in the way the Paul's fix, husbands and wives, Christian husbands and wives and infusions. Five. You pointed out that Adam is identified as a son, not a father. Yeah. And heav is identified in contrast as a mother. And I don't know. I'm not sure I had noticed that before.
Speaker 1:Well, I hadn't noticed it either.
Speaker 2:Sounds like That makes me feel better.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That was a discovery for me.
Speaker 2:But it helped, I think, to to watch this ingredient to that.
Speaker 1:One of the things I think I was trying to And it helps in the end to to actually focus on the on the reality, on the spiritual reality, which is Christ and his church. Who is Christ? He is the word of the father? He is the son of the father. He is the one who reveals the father's glory. And what I was trying to show in the second talk, and it's it's so beautifully on view in John's gospel. Mhmm. Is the way in which when Christ came to redeem humanity, he came as a word to share that glory. He came in a way in a sense to give away his glory to his brides, and then his glory might be reflected in the radiance of his bride that he's redeemed from the tragedy of of of the fall And and what I was trying to say is that in a sense, what we need to recognize is that it's not the sun in the incarnate son in isolation who reveals the father. But it's the son together with his bride. Together with the church, you know. And in way he speaks to that in that remarkable prayer in John's John seventeen, you know. I have given them the glory that you gave me. And
Speaker 2:I felt good. I I felt also in terms of as I was listening there, I thought, I'm seeing a passion here in the Christ. A a a a a longing that a bride room has for a bride. Yeah. I don't know that I had actually reflect I mean, I I think I kind of I knew he loved me, but yeah. It just felt more passionate.
Speaker 1:Is it? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And look, I think with good reason, that's why as much as as as as the church has recognized that song of songs, for example, is about marriage Mhmm. And the passion between a a husband and wife, and it's very sort of intimate language. Ultimately, that's a reality that has summed up in Christ Mhmm. In his relationship to his broad. So yeah. So when I so when we I think we see the it's the sun together with his bride reveals the glory of the father. And I went back to I mean, back to Genesis, normal, is it any accident then that it's that Adam has never described as father of humanity. Only god has ever described as the father of humanity. Who Adam is is he's only once as far as I know call the son of God in Luke chapter three. Well, that makes sense in light of the reality in Christ. It's Adam together with his bride.
Speaker 2:Well, he did you did draw my attention to Hebrews three and the Yeah. The quest is faithful is the sun over God's house. How does that fit in there?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's again, in in Hebrews chapter three, you get the sense that it's It's not the sun in isolation. It's the sun with his household.
Speaker 2:It's the
Speaker 1:sun who's been pointed. The sun over a household. House of belonging to God. Exactly. And And the the personal term that's used to describe that household, one of the personal terms that's used to describe that household in the scriptures is is that to speak of that household as a bride in the singular. So we may be individually brothers and sisters of Christ. But collectively, there's not collectively, we're be addressed as the bread Thun sliced.
Speaker 2:That's a fascinating I mean, this is another point I hadn't noticed before, individually called brothers. You need collectively all the pride. What's the significance there?
Speaker 1:I think I think it helps us understand that the when we think about the church, I think it helps us understand a number of things. When we think about the church, we're not to think about the church just as a kind of collection of individuals. Although it is a collection of individuals, a family, a family in which there there there are bones of kinship. But it's there's one church. One church that's actually described as the bride of Christ, which I think has something to say a Christian man. As as you think about what it means to be a Christian man, ultimately, we're swept up into that reality. We need to get our heads around the fact that we're actually in the bible's terms gathered up into the the figure of the the redeemed prostitute, you know, the half cast. Okay. So you're
Speaker 2:in you've taken us off to Ezekiel sixteen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so since we've gone there. Let's go there. What do you think is I mean, because you're saying, brides. We're the bride, and then you take us to ezekiel sixteen. Where the bride's gone AWOL. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's right. So in very graphic language. What I think, yes, that's right. In very very graphic language. What does the GL sixteen reminds us of, I think, is the failure of the failure, our failure in Adam Mhmm. The failure of the pattern. Which was an eves fault. It's actually all that fault.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And and When we think of ourselves as belonging to the bride of Christ, when we think of ourselves as belonging to his body as his brothers and sisters. We need to see ourselves as being like that. Destitute figure of the prostitute woman in a zikiel Spain, which of course is a description of Israel. Description of Israel, which is I think true as all as we are gathered up into that reality in Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And to come back to the point that he he made a moment ago, in terms of a Christian man thinking of himself as the bride of Christ. It felt to me that part of the impact of of listing and reflecting on what you were saying was that you're actually giving bribes a special delightful cherished precious dignity in the view of the sun, the bridegroom that is exciting.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think you know, especially when you see how you look at a striking place like Revelation twelve. Mhmm. It's that description of this woman who's is is clothed with the splendor of the sun and with the with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of with twelve twelve stars. And you see the way in which that woman is described in Revelation twelve. It's clearly a woman who I think is described as the mother of of of the one who will bear the scepter, mother of the Christ, but the mother as well of all the offspring. Of of Christ. And I think I think commentators are right to notice that it's not it's not necessarily directly a reference to Mary then so much as a reference to the church as a whole. And so you know, as much as Christian men need to see their primary identity in the in the context of of that variety, that reality. Christian women need to see themselves in the context of that extraordinary image of the woman clothes with the splendor of the Santa co wear with Christ. Mhmm. A co wear with Christ no less. Than the man Mhmm. And a Christian man caught up into this extraordinary dignity. Of being redeemed and ransomed by Christ. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I came out feeling more emotional about the whole thing. Good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it's such a beautiful picture.
Speaker 2:And and what impact does that have on me as a Christian man, as a Christian husband? And then I'll ask you Yeah. As impact on it as a Christian wife. Christian woman.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, yes. And that that sort of I was I had some reflections on ephesians far.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I I think what Paul is Paul is doing in that chapter is he's not I don't think what we see in that chapter is just a rehash of the the pattern in the beginning. There's Paul realizes that because of because of the fall in a sense, marriage is is is gonna be shot through with with the failure and the brokenness of our reality in Adam. What I think he envisages in in chapter five for the Christian, man and woman, the Christian marriage, man and woman as as we are gathered up into that reality, Christ and his bride. So we have the opportunity in our marriages. To express our discipleship in Christ. If our, you know, if our primary vocation as the church of God is the bride of Christ, is to bear the fruit of Christ, to use that language in John fifteen. To bear his glory, to reflect his image. So I think Paul calls us as it were to express that discipleship in the in the context of our calling in the old and now station, if you like, in the old edamic family. And some of us are married. And so he says, there's a way in which the Christian man is called to exercise headship in the context of the marriage. But it's it's defined by Christ and who Christ is. And likewise, I think the the the the wife is called to exercise her discipleship in the context of the marriage. And it's defined in a way that that in a sense is called to exemplify what it means to be a disciple which is to to in her life express and embody submission to the will of thought. So that I think is really critical or else the the passage
Speaker 2:I think can get distorted in unhelpful ways. Yeah. Let me just read to you a quote from Thomas Godkin that you drew my attention to, and then he can be on so forth. Where crisis, I'll come again to take you to be with me so that you also may be where I am. Godwin says, it's like Christ is saying, the truth is I cannot live without you. I shall never be quiet till I have you where I am so that we may never part again. That is the reason of it heaven shall not hold me nor my father's company. If I have not you with me, my heart is so set upon you. And if I have any glory you shall have part of it. And it is just lovely to link that Jesus feels like that about me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Of course, he's just meditating on the as he writes that on the way that Jesus Christ in John seventeen. Mhmm. And, you know, we've got to drink deeply on that truth as fast as samples because that's what he has in store for all of us. Mhmm. He won't in a sense settle for anything less than that in our lives.
Speaker 2:Which is a a mind boggling for it. Okay. Thanks so much for coming in. Like, yes, on the pastor's heart, Andrew Lesley. He has the doctor Tibson is more theological college and well, I hope you've engaged well with that and you go and check out these two lectures of Andrew. And enjoy having your brain stretched as I have been. This is the fastest heart, and we'll look forward to your company next Tuesday after a name.