As we head to 2024 most of us are recasting ministry teams for the new year.
But how can we do this without making some of the mistakes that we have made in 2023?
How do we do better with staff teams and all the various volunteer ministry teams across our church?
And even in the best places - there’s an inertia that we will slip back to functioning as rosters… How do we fix that?
Grahame Fuller is a long term senior leader at EV Church on the Central Coast. Jo Gibbs is the Effective Teams consultant for Reach Australia.
http://www.thepastorsheart.net/podcast/relationships-results-rhythms-ministry-teams
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Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.
As we head to 2024 most of us are recasting ministry teams for the new year.
But how can we do this without making some of the mistakes that we have made in 2023?
How do we do better with staff teams and all the various volunteer ministry teams across our church?
And even in the best places - there’s an inertia that we will slip back to functioning as rosters… How do we fix that?
Grahame Fuller is a long term senior leader at EV Church on the Central Coast. Jo Gibbs is the Effective Teams consultant for Reach Australia.
http://www.thepastorsheart.net/podcast/relationships-results-rhythms-ministry-teams
--
Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.
The Past is Hard and Dominic Steele and Ministry teams, relationships, results, rhythms, recruiting and retention, joe Gibbs and Graham Fuller are our guests as we head to 2024, most of us are recasting ministry teams for the new year, but how can we do this without making some of the mistakes that we made in 2023? And how do we do better as staff teams? And then all the various ministry teams that are functioning in our church, and even in the best places, there's an inertia that we slip back into functioning as rosters, and how do we fix that? Graham Fuller he's a long-term member of the team at EV Church on the Central Coast and has been involved in just about every aspect of that ministry. Joe Gibbs is the effective teams consultant for Rich Australia. Joe, before we get to ministry teams, the past is hard, and what's going on in your heart as a pastor at the moment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've been having some great discussions in our staff team about what all of life worship looks like for the pastor, so that individual, personal, devotional life, loving God wholeheartedly but what that also looks like in the gathering. And I've been reflecting on how, when we know God deeply, when we're in His Word and seeing Him more clearly, that should shape our will, will in obedience to His commands. But also how does it stir our affections? So I've been thinking about 1 Peter 1, filled with inexpressible and glorious joy. What does that look like for me as I respond to gospel truths? So that's been fun.
Speaker 3:Graham, your pastor, sir, I think regularly, and at the moment I'm particularly thinking, about sacrificial service. And what does it actually look like to serve sacrificially? You just get this sense about the apostle Paul that he gave and gave and gave and served to the point where he really had no reserves, but that actually caused him to rely on God, who raises the dead. And so I simultaneously find I want to be like that and I don't want to be like that.
Speaker 3:So, I try to work on my heart with that and I'd love that for all our people that are church as well.
Speaker 1:Joe, as we think about ministry teams, I suspect there's quite a few people who actually think I've got teams happening well, that actually you might, as a church consultant in this area, say no, you don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a myth or a mistake that if you put people together and get them working on something, it automatically makes a healthy team, when an actual fact is it's not. It can be people in very siloed roles or just doing their thing, not really understanding where you're going as a team together, being able to pull together really well, and not necessarily having healthy relationships. That reflects the gospel so that you're actually able to work really well together. So what?
Speaker 1:makes a good ministry team.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you said it in our introduction, there's a few different things, but I like to think of these five as areas to work on. So relationships, results, if I can remember them, all are rhythms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll get to that. Graham New Testament. What is the New Testament? What's the pattern of ministry teams in the New Testament?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, it doesn't use the word team, Is it something?
Speaker 1:we've just invented from management techniques.
Speaker 2:Yes, no.
Speaker 3:Well, I guess in our culture we're familiar with what a team is. We see sporting teams, we understand how teams work in those sort of contexts. So it's a helpful metaphor not used in the New Testament, but the New Testament has a real sense that we're a body. We have different parts, we have different gifts and abilities, and yet we all have one mission, and so we pull together to achieve that big mission making more disciples, deeper disciples, and so even Qoinonia, our fellowship is partnership in the gospel together. And so I think the concept is there in the New Testament, and teams is a helpful modern metaphor that helps us grasp clearly what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you see the body of Christ. You see all of the co-workers that Paul has in門원 and 16, there's so much. Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Relationships on the team. I mean, that's your first data Team health. How do we do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it starts with us individually as leaders and being self-aware, so knowing what our preferences are, how we've made our family of origin, what our tendency is when conflict happens, that kind of thing, so then we can grow our emotional intelligence. But our relationships on the team are really about how we live out the gospel with each other, so how we're encouraging and mutually discipling each other, seeing each other grow as followers of Jesus, how we keep short accounts with people, how we give people the benefit of the doubt. It's interesting, patrick Lentioni and Five Disfunctions of a Team. The foundation for the healthy team is trust, and so you can see that relationship is reflected in that and people who can be honest and vulnerable and say I don't know, or I made a mistake, or I'm sorry, but they'll know that and have a level of trust where they know that that's not going to be taken up and used against them, and that vulnerability and that honesty and that openness in relationships means that then everyone can bring everything to the task.
Speaker 1:For the team. Let's think of a bad moment maybe a bad moment on a staff team, and then perhaps a bad moment in a volunteer team and how it could have been done better.
Speaker 3:Specific moment. Well, I mean, I know we're shirts on the central coast.
Speaker 2:Or in Anand Dal.
Speaker 3:It's often moments where that trust is violated. So someone had a good go at something and then they're criticised for it in a public setting rather than help to be seen giving feedback more privately. That sort of thing.
Speaker 1:So how do we do that? Well, in that we want to I mean, as a team leader, I want to have all of our staff team review an event and in the end, we are going to reflect on some of the things that didn't go as well as we might have hoped that they could have gone, and somebody might end up feeling bad.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's. The trust is the currency of teams, and so how do you, over a long period of time, build a trust that the team leader is trustworthy, that the team members can trust each other, and that's through multiple interactions over a long period of time, caring for each other, wanting what's best for each other, and there is feedback. Not doing it in a way that squashes, crushes, humiliates someone, trying to develop a sense that we own this thing and not just one person. And so they're alone responsible, because if you develop that bank of trust, you can make withdrawals at certain times. Or it's a little harder for a person because we're critiquing an event that they particularly had ownership of. So, yeah, those sort of things.
Speaker 2:I wonder if it also raises those starting with the individual leader and potential identity issues. Absolutely yeah, because it's also about how you give feedback. If we're finding our identity in something other than our relationship with Christ in our role, in our ministry, then when we do receive feedback that's not positive, does it crush us. So there's a whole bunch of things that can happen in that area for the individual leader if they're operating out of that.
Speaker 1:So I've got somebody who's thinking oh look, I've been running rosters and I want to run teams, and how do you do the change management to get to that? Yeah, I mean, where would you start?
Speaker 3:Yeah, where would I start? I'd start. I've got to get in my mind what a team is, because I think there's real fogginess about what a team is, and I think that is. It's where we have shared responsibility to achieve something, a big goal, a big outcome. So the leader functions in such a way that they fully own the responsibility, but then they share that responsibility. So this is our thing. So let me make a practical we all care about this, yep.
Speaker 1:Is the big goal making the music work? Or is the big goal somebody feeling are you getting a leaflet when you and being noticed, or what's the big goal? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, the big goal is the subset of the biggest goal, which is make disciples more and deeper. But then what particular area am I working with? And it needs to be big enough that a team needs to run it. See, rosters are not evil. There might be some things you're doing in church life, like maybe Bible reading, that it doesn't require a team, it doesn't require people to get together too regularly maybe training twice a year Just roster the people on and run it, that's perfectly fine.
Speaker 3:But if you can get a big enough goal making the music work is a big goal, and so drawing together a team to make that happen you're going to get better results around that big goal for the cause of the gospel. And so how would I go about it? I think was your initial question. The first thing I'd do is I'd have a meeting, because I think it's hard to run a team unless you get the team together. And you want to get the team together to think about what you do before you do what you do. And so running good meetings becomes critical.
Speaker 3:And the key piece I think the very heart of a good meeting is the moment where you say how could we do this better, how could we make this happen more effectively? Or when you open it up and we're all now discussing how we can push this ministry forward together and achieve the goal, for the greater goal, of making disciples. Because that's the moment people feel like I'm on the inside, I'm part of this, I own this, along with everyone else, and take responsibility for this big goal, and that's where it really starts to get momentum. That's the very moment leaders tend to be afraid of, because we lose control.
Speaker 3:I'm afraid of it, I lose control. Tell me, it's easy to run a meeting where you come and you tell people what you're going to do, here are your roles, here are youror have a discussion, but you, really you have the plan and say here's one I prepared earlier, let's do this, let's do this, whereas if you're really making decisions together, there's risk involved because the conversation could go anywhere and you've got to manage the relationships, manage what you think is going to be a helpful outcome, and so that all becomes very risky.
Speaker 1:Where's the tension between giving a role, description and clarity and letting them do what they want?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think role descriptions are healthy, but you want to change them over time because ministries evolve as we go after new goals. But if you just have a role and run in the role, it could function like a roster. He is all those people with all those roles come together and they talk about the big goal. And how are all those roles achieving that goal? Or are they not achieving that goal? Yep, and what would we do differently? And so now, how do we need to adjust the roles in order to achieve the goal? Yep, so role description sometimes you can go, I'll take or leave it. Sometimes they can be helpful.
Speaker 2:And even in the role description you'd want to focus on results so that the individual can take those key responsibilities and shape them around what they're good at, bring something to that role. You don't want to just be. You need to do this two hours every week. You need that information, but you want it to be results focused.
Speaker 1:So I've got a clarity on how to do results. When I'm thinking of the staff team and having a dashboard meeting every quarter, those kind of things, how do I do results in whether it's the music team or the connection team? How do I do that? Yeah, how would I have that team of volunteers be analysing my results?
Speaker 2:I think it's the same principles, though you really want that team to understand where you're heading, what your purpose is as a team, so that everyone understands what you're aiming for, can contribute everything towards that, and you would still want indicators for that. You'd still want things that you'd check in regularly with them and say how are we going on this? What's our response been to that? So, whatever we've set up to be able to measure what it is that we're aiming for, so you still want those check-ins and you'd still want regular meetings. You'd still want catch-ups with your team leader. So very similar principles, but understanding that it's a volunteer team, so their availability, the amount of time, is not as great, but similar principles.
Speaker 1:Now in, how do you? What kind of expectation do you then have, graham, of meetings for a volunteer team? I mean, because people just think, look, I can just turn up, and I can just turn up and give the leaflet out at the door. I don't need a 20-minute meeting. How do you?
Speaker 3:Yes, what's the right expectation to sit there. Yes, that's a good question, I think. When you're doing a small job like handing out a leaflet or I don't want to offend anyone, but doing morning tea so morning tea has been around forever in our churches Someone does morning tea. Does the person feel I really need to come to a meeting to talk about how to do the morning tea better? This biscuit or that? You know? Probably not, and so the many can feel like a waste of time and I probably wouldn't want to go either.
Speaker 3:But when you go, actually what we're trying to do is not just that small outcome, but we're trying to host the family of God coming together and unbelievers coming to our presence. And you pull the morning tea people together with the people responsible for the setup, the people responsible for the decor and aesthetics of the place, the people responsible for whatever connecting, and then you have a meeting. Now we're thinking about a much larger outcome. How do we help the family of God come together in a way that's going to help them engage? Do the one and others of the New Testament help each other grow and help the non-Christian come in in such a way they feel comfortable, not ailing, and meet some people, so you've got a bigger goal. That's a meeting that's worthwhile coming to, and we all discuss how each of our parts contribute to that goal. How often would you do it? Well, you want to do it regularly, after it feels like a team and gets the work done, but also conscious that volunteers are volunteers and so so how often?
Speaker 2:Depends.
Speaker 3:I'd say it does depend. But I'd say at least once a term, right, ok, but it depends on the team. Sometimes a couple of times a term would be my seams Right.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a sense that even in serving that's a discipleship opportunity and so we're forming and shaping and growing deeper disciples who are serving. And so that time together in God's Word about that bigger mission like we want to see a whole area reach with the Gospel that is shaping and forming people. So that's beyond the logistics that happen but that's also happening in that time together.
Speaker 1:When you do that once a term meeting of the morning tea host connection people, would you do it as an area, if you like, the team from the first week of the month and the second week and the third week, or would you do it kind of just in the half a dozen people from that Sunday, you know, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:What's the identity of the team?
Speaker 1:Is it the once a week thing, or is it the whole? Thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good question. I think I'm always trying to create a team of teams, so I love as much as possible bringing the whole thing together. Do some time particularly vision setting where we're going, all those sort of things, and then often break out into the smaller teams for more nuts and bolts, sort of decision making.
Speaker 1:And it's like I said at that point, you talk about what results we're getting at that quarterly meeting there. Yes, now rhythms. You talked about rhythms. What do you mean by that, joe?
Speaker 2:So it incorporates things like regular meetings and so that would be as a team and you might do that quarterly to reflect on how you're going in your results areas. But it also means things like one-to-one catch ups with the leader of the team, talking about how they're going, how they're developing as a leader and their responsibilities and how their team is going, but also putting in place regular organizational rhythms, and I even do this with volunteers in churches. Do a once a year performance or a development review with them. Four or five questions how has the year gone? What are the things to celebrate and give thanks to God for? Where would you like to grow and develop? Is it this ministry next year? Do you want to keep serving? Are there other areas that we could keep on growing and developing you? So I think, even in the volunteer level, the things that we would do as a church staff, team or an organization are really helpful because they're good health things that keep the rhythms. They're kind of the mechanics that help the results and the relationships happen over time.
Speaker 3:Well, very similar things. So the rhythms of serving so how often is the person on doing what ministry? What does that load sort of look like? So there's that sort of rhythm. There's the rhythm of the team meetings how often is that? And then there's the rhythm of one-to-ones who are you going to meet one-to-one with, and how often? How?
Speaker 1:does one-to-ones fit in with teams and serving and that kind of thing?
Speaker 3:Often it's still good to catch up one-to-one with a team leader. So if you're leading an area, I'd still like to catch up with each of the team leaders who lead the smaller some sets of that area. How frequently? Again, I'd like to do it as much as possible because the more time I can get with anyone, the more we will shape each other, we'll disciple each other, we'll grow in leadership and we've got unlimited things we can do in terms of training. But the tension with that is their volunteers have got limited time. How beneficial is it for them in the context of the rest of their life? But I would definitely do it again at least once a term with a volunteer, potentially more with a staff member. I'd do it at least three times a term.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do teams go through troughs? You're nodding. We've got people watching.
Speaker 2:Well, I think anyone who's been part of a team knows that they go through troughs. Some of those are natural parts of a team forming, so people might be aware of the.
Speaker 2:Forming storming yeah forming, norming, storming, performing, and you can get a drop-off of team effectiveness as you go through that storming stage. But you need that stage of working each other out and what you're doing together and gelling as a team so then that effectiveness can increase over time and you can really perform and fly as a team. But I think when we don't pay attention to things like relationships and results and rhythms, when they're not healthy, then the team can fall into all different types of dysfunctionality. People are not clear about what we're doing here. There's less buying from people. They're less committed, people hold grudges or they're Grudges yes, not at your church?
Speaker 1:No, not at my church.
Speaker 2:I've heard about it at other churches. But when they're not applying the gospel, living out the gospel with each other, then people can get uncomfortable with each other, so then they're not able to work together, and so that can actually impact on how to it's relational glue that I haven't done enough to and therefore, when you do something, you annoy me, or vice versa.
Speaker 2:And we don't do no-transcript work to resolve it and the gospel has so much in this space for us to be able to reconcile relationships. When we don't do that, then I don't want to serve or I don't want to serve with that person. You end up with a whole bunch of dynamics, a whole bunch of energy put into non-ministry things, into not making disciples and not reaching our neighbors with the gospel, but a whole bunch of energy put into other things that distract, make it ministry a lot harder.
Speaker 1:Hmm, as you go in and you consult in different churches, I'm imagining lots of people have said I really want to get this better and yet I don't know how. And we've had several stop-start attempts and in fact we've started and it was running well and it's gone off. And how do you help us? Do that change back?
Speaker 2:Well, partly that's why we've been running piloting a program this year, because we've realized it does take time to build a healthy team. It's not a quick thing. You don't just go to a conference and you've got the silver bullet and you can fix it. It really takes time giving people the theological understanding of how they're working together, why that's important within the church, but also the tools and the shared language so that it's less personal, it's less I'm annoyed with you and your leadership style, but it's actually. Oh, here's a model that we could discuss. Where are we falling down? Where could we improve? And it makes it a neutral-served space for people to be able to grow. So that's why we've been thinking into this space at RetroState, just thinking what does it need? It needs like a two-year timeframe. It needs a whole bunch of things coaching, particularly working with the senior leader said they've got the tools that they need and to be able to lead their team really well. It's not a quick thing.
Speaker 1:So we've got relationships, results, rhythms. Now, what about the whole area of recruiting for the team? And so I'm thinking, either actually in my role it's mostly asking somebody to be a team leader, but what do I want to make sure that I'm encouraging somebody to watch this episode? What do I make sure and I'm serious about that, Do you know what I want to make sure that they do yeah, or they're at.
Speaker 2:Well, it's really important to remember you're not just recruiting to a role, but to a team, and so there's conversations. This is the purpose of our team. This is what it looks like to join, thinking about how that person will fit into the team, not because you're wanting everyone the same, but because you're actually wanting a diversity of perspectives in the team. All the studies show that having more diversity men and women serving alongside each other, different viewpoints all of that means you're going to get better outcomes, better decision making. So, thinking about that makeup of your team, but also, as you're recruiting people and they're joining the team, thinking about those stages of team formation, because you might have formed a team three years ago, but then you have a whole bunch of new people join and so your team similarly needs to go through that forming, norming, storming, performing, to be able to. It's not just you come and join us and we've already got this sorted, but actually having them involved and part of shaping that team so that you can all work really well together. So recruitment is really important.
Speaker 3:You do think about who does the recruiting. I guess so. Is it the team leader? Is it the senior pastor? Is there some other way that that takes place in church? Because often it falls between stools or the person left responsible for it might be a volunteer and they feel like, while I can run this team, I'm not necessarily that good at finding other people to join the team and onboard them well, so they might need a bit of help in that.
Speaker 3:So that's a key piece. But then, yeah, how do you onboard them in a really helpful way so they're clear about the requirements, the commitment, what's it going to be? There's no bait and switch through there. And then, yes, my experience is you're always storming because there's always new people coming into the team, there's always changes taking place, so you sort of move through and then you keep coming back. But it's recruiting to replace people who've left, to add new people so you can grow. But it's also recruiting, but recruiting up into leadership. So we're always trying to lift, trying to lift, trying to lift, which should leave places in the team for others to come in. So I think it requires a really proactive approach and that often needs help from the senior minister or senior leaders to make that happen.
Speaker 2:And I think also that thinking into a leadership pipeline for the whole church, how we're multiplying leaders. We're looking at some stats this week. I know you've been chatting about the decline of the church and the impact, but the number of churches that need to be planted to see even the number of Reform DeVangelicals in Australia grow.
Speaker 2:We retrofitted the number of leaders that would need to be developed for those church plants or for those growing churches. It's huge. So every leader, every pastor needs to be thinking about how to develop leaders, how they're doing that across the ministries of the church, not just to replace leaders in their teams and their church, but for the growth as needed for the gospel.
Speaker 3:I've been in lots of different areas in church life and the thing that people often don't recognise, I think, is that in some sense they were all the same. So, on the ground, yes, you do very different things, but the key is getting the right people in and good leadership over it, and so, really, the people responsible for those. One of the key things you've got to be doing all the time is leadership, development, leadership. How do I bring the right people in and develop them as high as far as they can go? Retention it's a big one.
Speaker 2:This was an R that got added during a pilot of one of our programs, the team development program, and someone made the comment that retention seems to be the secret source of really healthy teams. Now I think it can go too far. You could have a team of people who've all been there for 30 years and there's no fresh ideas. So there's a healthy spot somewhere in between, but just churches that are able to and teams that are able to keep people for the longer term. You haven't got a high turnover.
Speaker 2:The people in those teams, they know already what the outcomes are, what the results are that you're working towards. They know people in the church, they know their role and they're growing. And with a healthy leadership pipeline where you've got people growing into vocational ministry, going off to college, coming back to serve in the church, that is an extra element that actually really supercharges a team and I don't think we actually pay much attention to that. In terms of retention. We realise when it's not working. If there's lots of staff turnover, lots of team turnover, you're spending an awful lot of time of onboarding, getting people going through all those stages of forming and storing. It's a lot of energy to do that, but if you can have a team that know each other, that trust each other, that have been doing this for the long term and really clear on what's happening, that is a really important element of a healthy team.
Speaker 1:And yet there is a tension, isn't there between I mean, I love it the idea of me not having to change things, because it's just that area functioning well together but I do want to as you just said a moment ago, Graham be growing people and have them step up to the higher leadership levels, which in the end is going to mean leaving whatever role you were doing and in fact, if all of our church teams just stayed the same, then actually that would be a sign of stagnation in our context. Do you want to bounce on that?
Speaker 3:Graham, yes, yes and yes. I think you're right. People need not everyone. Some people just love running in the same track forever, but most people need a bit of change and something different. But I do think if you've raised people up as higher and higher in leadership, what they're actually able to do is be transferable into lots of areas of church life and so things I mean.
Speaker 1:I was surprised, when you arrived here today, that I said what's your job, what's your title?
Speaker 3:And you said kids' pastor, whereas I thought you were maturity pastor and that was three jobs ago, yeah, yeah yeah, which shows, I think, that lots of the skills that you learn over time are transferable into all the areas of church, and so I think you can still have good retention. But flexibility and movement for both staff and volunteers around church, I think the thing is particularly where you don't have retention because of dysfunction and unhealth. So and I think that's rampant actually I think there's all sorts of flaws in ministry teams so that when you pour people in, there's a hole in the bucket and they just keep going out. Often it's covered because you're pouring enough in that it sits at the same rate as the outflow, but I think it's a massive issue and I've got lots of thoughts about why that's a massive issue.
Speaker 3:Well, if it's just us tell us why, I think it almost always comes down to the senior leader of that team, whether it be the staff team or being a volunteer team, and how they function as the leader of the team and how they bring the team to function, and so it's got lots of facets to that. One of the big ones is they either don't fully own responsibility for themselves. So when they set up a team or get people doing jobs, it's like I had a monkey on my back.
Speaker 2:now it's on your back and I'm on my back, drop and run, got it off and they're like oh, now I'm free.
Speaker 3:Good, now I can focus on something else. And you understand that people are busy, life is stressful, but most people don't flourish in a context where they're thrown in the deep end. Some do, but a lot don't. But the other failure is when they don't give responsibility in a way where they continue to, where they give real responsibility to people. So they own the responsibility of themselves, but they don't actually trust others, and so they don't create this sense of ownership in the team. They don't create a sense of ownership in the person. So there's now a shared responsibility. They have responsibility in different ways one in oversight, one in getting the role done, but a shared responsibility.
Speaker 3:And often that leads to things like micromanaging people, which no one likes, giving people jobs and then taking those jobs back off them, which cuts the nerve of responsibility and everyone hates. And lots of those things actually come from identity issues within leaders. So I need to be the best, to be seen to be the best, to be in control, to get everything perfect too. And so leadership work, I think, is a constant. It's a refining, growing as a disciple work, because it keeps making you, especially Christian leadership. It should keep you making you look at you and within you and see all the things that, oh wow, my identity is not in Christ, not as a child of God, as fully as I thought it was. I need to keep being reshaped and letting go of needing to look good and needing to be important and doing the job I love and not giving it to someone else All those things.
Speaker 1:So you've developed some training module course on exactly what we're talking about. Just give us the pitch on that.
Speaker 2:In terms of identity or in terms of no, no, no sorry in the five hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've been piloting a program this year for individual key staff ministry leaders in churches and it's a two-year program content, so two lots of intensives and coaching a whole bunch of things with that. But we also piloted a program with whole staff teams in this senior minister. So we've been developing content about what would build a healthy team and that was great to run it. Graham was part of that, with us delivering some of the content. But to have senior ministers be able to sit with their team after each session and say, okay, this is what we've learned, how does that apply to us? What work do we need to do? Where are we good at this? And to be able to set goals together, to work on this, even to give them some tools that they can stop and use every 12 months to check on their team health a whole bunch of things. So, yeah, that's been a great program. We're rolling it out next year and just really excited about being able to walk alongside teams in churches, help them become more healthy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for coming in. It's a pleasure. My guests on the past is heart, graham Fuller, and has been involved in just about every aspect of the EV church life and the central coast of New South Wales, and Joe Gibbs is the church team's consultant at Reach Australia. My name is Dominic Steele. You've been with us on the past is heart and we will look forward to your. Well, actually this is our last episode for the year, but next week a best off issue, week after that a best off issue, and then we're back with live episodes from about the fifth of January. Looking forward to your company next year on the past is heart.